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Ask a beta tester thread

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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Arincia » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:00 am

IS RF providing any Damage Reduction for the protection tree in cata? Main reason is that while warriors still have there 10% with the removal of the RF talents (6%) and changes to Divine plea/glyph (3%) it seems we would be very much behind them in terms of basic damage reduction. (simplest test maybe to cheack damage with it up then without it up on same mob?)
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Bobness » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:01 am

I've been wondering the same thing re-damage reduction..
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby tlitp » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:20 am

Do Cons/Cens scale with haste on b12644 ? If so, with physical or spell haste ? Do not bother to reply with blue posts and/or speculation. Thanks.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:28 am

As far as the trainer thing, I was missing a good chunk of my spellbook, so dropped mining in order to relearn everything. Now the only bug I've come across is some of my talent points unlearning themselves, but not showing it until after I've spent the points elsewhere... I can help with any questions later (as long as the world servers aren't down again). Btw, Orgrimmar looks crazy... I find myself getting lost again :P

Oh... also, since they haven't updated most of the glyphs... it's currently possible to have a GCD Holy Wrath (normal 15 sec cd minus 15 secs from HW glyph :D)
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Marblehead » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:33 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:The recent blue post on masteries states that warriors will get 10% block chance and 10% critical block chance (presumably 10% more often once you've already blocked), while we have 16% block chance. Both are then further increased via mastery rating. I don't know where warriors are getting the stated 15% more block chance that we don't have (or need to use holy shield to match) since I don't see it in their talent tree. Is it one of the Prot tree selection perks?

Arincia wrote:IS RF providing any Damage Reduction for the protection tree in cata? Main reason is that while warriors still have there 10% with the removal of the RF talents (6%) and changes to Divine plea/glyph (3%) it seems we would be very much behind them in terms of basic damage reduction. (simplest test maybe to cheack damage with it up then without it up on same mob?)

At the moment, in beta, prot paladins and prot warriors are identical in matter of stats, with 3 exceptions. Both have +15% stam, +10% armor and 5% base dodge/parry/block. However:

a) warriors have 30% passive block chance (5% base plus 15% from Improved Block by speccing prot plus 10% from Critical Block as their mastery), while paladins have only the base 5% block chance (Divine Bulwark should be our mastery adding to a total of 21% passive block chance, but it's not implemented yet)

b) warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance, while paladins don't have any additional damage reduction (this was tested on the same mob, using a warrior and a paladin with exactly the same amount of armor, facing away from the mob)

c) warriors still have their ranged weapon stats as an added bonus (I know about the speculations of stat libram, but it's not certain yet)


tlitp wrote:Do Cons/Cens scale with haste on b12644 ? If so, with physical or spell haste ? Do not bother to reply with blue posts and/or speculation. Thanks.

Tested with 0 and 580 haste rating (around 6% haste at level 83).

Consecration's duration and amount of ticks remained the same in both occasions.

Censure is affected by haste, but I can't say if it's melee or spell haste, since haste rating provides the same percentage of melee and spell haste. Using a holy spec, with 6% haste from gear plus 9% from Judgements of the Pure plus 30% from Speed of Light (this last one is probably a bug), I managed to get a Censure tick every 2 seconds, resulting in 7 ticks up from 5 for its full duration of 15sec. Without the holy shock haste, it ticked every 2.6 seconds. With prot gear (0 haste rating) and JotP, it ticked every 2.75 seconds.



On other news: Divine Shield is currently on the GCD.
Last edited by Marblehead on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:07 am

Marblehead wrote:On other news: Divine Shield is currently on the GCD.


Divine Shield has never not been on the GCD to my knowledge... is there a reason this is news?
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Bobness » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:36 am

b) warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance, while paladins don't have any additional damage reduction (this was tested on the same mob, using a warrior and a paladin with exactly the same amount of armor, facing away from the mob)


Is this intentional ???? seems very strange.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Marblehead » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:40 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Marblehead wrote:On other news: Divine Shield is currently on the GCD.


Divine Shield has never not been on the GCD to my knowledge... is there a reason this is news?

Hmmm... Now that you mention it... Seems that the heat is making me delusional. I should go take a cold shower :roll:
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:05 am

Marblehead wrote:
tlitp wrote:Do Cons/Cens scale with haste on b12644 ? If so, with physical or spell haste ? Do not bother to reply with blue posts and/or speculation. Thanks.

Tested with 0 and 580 haste rating (around 6% haste at level 83).

Consecration's duration and amount of ticks remained the same in both occasions.

Censure is affected by haste, but I can't say if it's melee or spell haste, since haste rating provides the same percentage of melee and spell haste. Using a holy spec, with 6% haste from gear plus 9% from Judgements of the Pure plus 30% from Speed of Light (this last one is probably a bug), I managed to get a Censure tick every 2 seconds, resulting in 7 ticks up from 5 for its full duration of 15sec. Without the holy shock haste, it ticked every 2.6 seconds. With prot gear (0 haste rating) and JotP, it ticked every 2.75 seconds.


Just checking for consistency:
Base tick interval is 3 seconds.
3./(1+[6 9 15 45]./100) = [2.8302 2.7523 2.6087 2.0690];

So with just the 9% from JotP, we'd expect 2.75, as observed. With 15% we'd get the 2.6 you observed. With 45%, we'd get very close to 2 seconds. Speed of Light's tooltip suggests it only gives spell haste, which if accurate would mean that Censure scales with spell haste rather than melee haste.

<edit> Oops. Haste is multiplicative, so you actually had about 15.5% and 50% in those last tests (1.06*1.09*1.3 > 1.5). So we'd expect 2.597 and 2.00 for the last two, in line with your observations.

So I think it's reasonable to tentatively say that Censure scales with haste exactly the way everything else does: base/(1+%spellhaste/100).

Question about the details of tick mechanics: Is it always an integer number of even ticks? For example, let's say you have enough haste to get Censure up to 6.5 ticks on paper. Do you only get 6 equal ticks, or do you get 6 equal ones and a 7th that has half of the damage payload? Or do you get 6 ticks that are all slightly more damage than they would be if you had only enough haste for 6 ticks?
Last edited by theckhd on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Noradin » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:16 am

Marblehead wrote:a) warriors have 30% passive block chance (5% base plus 15% from Improved Block by speccing prot plus 10% from Critical Block as their mastery), while paladins have only the base 5% block chance (Divine Bulwark should be our mastery adding to a total of 21% passive block chance, but it's not implemented yet)

b) warriors have 10% additional damage reduction from Defensive Stance, while paladins don't have any additional damage reduction (this was tested on the same mob, using a warrior and a paladin with exactly the same amount of armor, facing away from the mob)


a) So we would block a little more with 100% uptime of HS and no matery rating for either class if one disregards Shield Block (100% blockchance 10s per 30s) and Hold the Line (10% critblock chance for 10s after parry). Without Shieldblock and with Hold the Line up all the time we would block for roughly the same over the course of a fight.

b) Needs to be addressed (and it will, I believe).
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:31 am

theckhd wrote:Question about the details of tick mechanics: Is it always an integer number of even ticks? For example, let's say you have enough haste to get Censure up to 6.5 ticks on paper. Do you only get 6 equal ticks, or do you get 6 equal ones and a 7th that has half of the damage payload? Or do you get 6 ticks that are all slightly more damage than they would be if you had only enough haste for 6 ticks?
The observed behavior is that you'll always have an integer amount of ticks. It actually decreases duration until it fits in a new tick, but it fits in a new tick a bit earlier than you'd expect: When you have enough haste to fit in half a new tick, it's added, and the total duration of the DoT is increased appropriately so it fits in the full amount of new ticks, even though that does make the duration longer at first than the original duration.

See: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t97234-cata ... ost1707970 and http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t97234-cata ... ost1709026
That's a lot of rogue discussion with testing on the mechanics and such. Threads for the other classes had the same finding for other DoTs that scale with haste, so I'd guess these mechanics are universal.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Marblehead » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:50 am

theckhd wrote:Question about the details of tick mechanics: Is it always an integer number of even ticks? For example, let's say you have enough haste to get Censure up to 6.5 ticks on paper. Do you only get 6 equal ticks, or do you get 6 equal ones and a 7th that has half of the damage payload? Or do you get 6 ticks that are all slightly more damage than they would be if you had only enough haste for 6 ticks?

Just like Chicken said. With 15% haste, ticking every 2.6 seconds, Censure does 6 ticks. With 9% haste, ticking every 2.75 seconds, Censure does 5 ticks. There isn't a smaller tick. Also, the damage doesn't change when adding/subtracting haste. However, I don't think that matters, since Censure gets refreshed with every swing.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:37 am

Thanks for the links. That's fairly simple to model. For us the number of ticks is mostly a moot point, since as you said, it gets refreshed frequently. All that will matter most of the time is the mean time between ticks.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Noradin » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:05 am

theckhd wrote:Thanks for the links. That's fairly simple to model. For us the number of ticks is mostly a moot point, since as you said, it gets refreshed frequently. All that will matter most of the time is the mean time between ticks.


It might be if we have to tap between mobs.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:19 am

Noradin wrote:a) So we would block a little more with 100% uptime of HS and no matery rating for either class if one disregards Shield Block (100% blockchance 10s per 30s) and Hold the Line (10% critblock chance for 10s after parry). Without Shieldblock and with Hold the Line up all the time we would block for roughly the same over the course of a fight.

Divine Barkskin is likely intended to balance out against Shield Block, which doesn't seem all that "balanced" in the current model given the majority of incoming tank damage is typically physical (ie. melee).

On a typical fight (predominantly melee damage to the tank, with some mild, non-consequential, non-physical damage added for flavor), Shield Block is essentially a 30% damage reduction cooldown which can be used every 30 seconds, whereas Paladins get 20% universal damage reduction on a minute cooldown? Unless Blizzard is intending to put some decent amount (enough to encourage using a cooldown) of predictable magical burst damage in most fights, the numbers really don't balance out very well at all.

Simple (and likely very inaccurate) napkin math:
-Figuring 25% pure avoidance (Dodge/Parry/Miss), 100% Holy Shield uptime, and zero Mastery Rating
-Warrior: 30% Block Chance
-Paladin: 36% Block Chance

-2.2s NPC swing timer (rounding up to 28 attacks/minute for simplicity)
-7 attacks avoided, 21 which connect
-Approximately 7 of those 21 are guaranteed blocks for Warriors due to Shield Block (20/60s)
--Leaves 14 remaining attacks, which at a 30% block chance comes to 4.2 attacks blocked, rounding it down to 4
-Paladins, without a chance at guaranteed blocks, would block 7.56 (rounding up to 8) of those 21 non-avoided attcks

Warrior: 11 blocks / 60 seconds
Paladin: 8 blocks / 60 seconds (and that's with ensuring Holy Shield has 100% uptime)

Three blocks over a 60 second window (and perfect RNG) doesn't sound like much, and probably won't be very noticeable in real time, but the longer the duration of a fight, the greater the disparity will be.

Ignoring Mastery Rating (but retaining base Mastery value), and how it will scale, they would need to bring Holy Shield back up to 30% just to break even with the current Warrior blocking model. That, or remove the Shield Block CD reduction from Shield Mastery, which would then make Shield Block and Divine Protection comparable with each other.

As stated before, rough napkin math, so consider the accuracy subject.

-------------

What happened to the part where GC stated that Paladins would block more often, while Warriors would sometimes block for more? Granted they aren't finished with the classes yet, but as it stands currently Warriors not only sometimes block for more, but also block more often. We have yet to see how Mastery scales at 85, but it would likely take a rather steep scaling curve just to break even between the classes, if the intent is to let Mastery balance it out.
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