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Ask a beta tester thread

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Adryl » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:45 pm

Archeth wrote:From what I gather int is still going to be the superior stat overall. Right now we want it because SP is a poor throughput stat for HL healing and because most of our regen tools are intellect-based (divine plea, replenishment, start mana). With 4.x rules the regen tools are nerfed (divine plea is borderline useless for holy and replenishment is weaker as well), but holy paladins gain spirit regen, and intellect also helps with that. In addition, the SP part of intellect is going to be worth more (a lot more?) as it's a HPM increase as well (unlike haste) and reliable (unlike crit).

People on EJ seem convinced that at least the initial part of our stat weights is intellect > spirit - the debates are mostly centered around haste (faster OOM vs. faster HL leading to less FoL/DL use and some HS cooldown interaction), crit (unreliable, no mana regen function anymore vs. free HPS increase) and mastery (sounds good on paper vs. not rolling shields and diminishing returns if tank avoidance increases).


I was semi afraid of this. I like how Int is getting the Str = atk power for melee dps treatment but how much of a return will it be? or will sp become a 'lesser' stat that what it is now.
Example someone with x amount of spell power would heal for 4000 when cata hits, x amount now heals for 3500.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Loras » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:02 pm

Darielle wrote:Judgments of the Bold/Wise both scale with haste, as does Ret's Mastery.

Any proof on that?
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Darielle » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:14 pm

Any proof on that?


Mmmm, I would have to dig through the early Beta stuff for that (pretty sure it was before Holy Power stuff even), so this could take a while. I assume the Mastery bit is more or less evident.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... eNo=12#233

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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Flex » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:40 pm

Haste also lowers the cooldown of the 4.5 second Crusader Strike for Ret.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Archeth » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:03 pm

Adryl wrote:I was semi afraid of this. I like how Int is getting the Str = atk power for melee dps treatment but how much of a return will it be? or will sp become a 'lesser' stat that what it is now.
Example someone with x amount of spell power would heal for 4000 when cata hits, x amount now heals for 3500.

Will it change to a lesser stat for holy paladins? Doubtful. What it will do is provide less mana per point (because the item points of SP are also in INT now, except on weapons), and the mana regen contribution changes due to various other redesigned mechanics .

With the new model of huge health pools and glacial, pathetic heals, SP from INT should be valuable to most if not all the newly homogenized healing classes. In addition, INT increases spirit regen, mana pool (technically not "regen" but it still allows you to cast more heals per fight) and replenishment. I don't see anything else taking its spot as it's the only way to adjust your regen and throughput at once (in a potentially big way). Spirit is pure regen. Haste is throughput you're buying with higher mana use. Crit is only throughput now, and unreliable at that. Mastery is either/or (do you save mana because you have to heal less, or do you heal more with one and the same spell and mana cost?).

If you a spell will heal less (or deal less damage) it's because of ability rebalancing, not primarily because spellpower got moved into intellect.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Adryl » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:06 pm

Archeth wrote:
Adryl wrote:I was semi afraid of this. I like how Int is getting the Str = atk power for melee dps treatment but how much of a return will it be? or will sp become a 'lesser' stat that what it is now.
Example someone with x amount of spell power would heal for 4000 when cata hits, x amount now heals for 3500.

Will it change to a lesser stat for holy paladins? Doubtful. What it will do is provide less mana per point (because the item points of SP are also in INT now, except on weapons), and the mana regen contribution changes due to various other redesigned mechanics .

With the new model of huge health pools and glacial, pathetic heals, SP from INT should be valuable to most if not all the newly homogenized healing classes. In addition, INT increases spirit regen, mana pool (technically not "regen" but it still allows you to cast more heals per fight) and replenishment. I don't see anything else taking its spot as it's the only way to adjust your regen and throughput at once (in a potentially big way). Spirit is pure regen. Haste is throughput you're buying with higher mana use. Crit is only throughput now, and unreliable at that. Mastery is either/or (do you save mana because you have to heal less, or do you heal more with one and the same spell and mana cost?).

If you a spell will heal less (or deal less damage) it's because of ability rebalancing, not primarily because spellpower got moved into intellect.


Now this helps A LOT. I guess my main question was is INT still the the way to gem or would spirit with a mix of SP. But seeing that INT is a 'all stat' in a way, it makes it much more desirable especially considering the fact it provides less mana per point according to you. If they update the meta gem +2% int, it will be my go to.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Arincia » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:33 pm

With replenishment at only 1% mp every 5 seconds and DP 10/15% max mana every 2 minutes, i don't think it would make a significant enough impact for overall mana regen till you hit a threshold based on your max mana vrs healing requirement. (lower max mp means more mana recovery needed while higher max mp= less mana recovery to heal the entire duration)

It means a 40k mana pool would yield only 400 mp/5 with replenishment. (10 int= 1 mp/5)
With DP at 10/15% max mp every 10 minutes its only 4k/4.5k mp every 2 minutes ( 10 int= .083/.125 mp/5)
Barring anything else i'm missing we have a 10 int= 1.083 or 1.125 mp/5 return.

I mean just alone right now DP is a 25% max mp every minute (10 int= .416 mp/5)
Replenishment is 5% per 5 sec (10 int= 5 mp/5)
That has us at 10 int = 5.416 mp/5 return.

So we essentially our having our max mp regen cut to 20% its effect from live. I'm not saying it couldn't work but given the nerfs to DP and replenishment I doubt we will end purely stacking int. As a thought put stat it's the best as we gain a constant healing increase with a slight longevity via max mp (and mp recovery via DP and replenishment). But we may have to consider using spirit at 85 to reach a minimum mana regen.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Archeth » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:50 am

If SP (INT) and haste allow you to rely on WoG, HS and HL more instead of having to use DL (let alone FoL), you can still assign some sort of "regen" value to INT beyond replenishment (let's just ignore DP for now because it's borderline useless for holy atm) from the mana you saved that way. Spirit regen also increases with more intellect, currently like this:
Code: Select all
MP5 = 5 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * Base_Regen) * 0.60

According to Wowwiki/ElitistJerks. It's not increasing it as much as spirit does, but with the throughput increase + replenishment/mana pool + increased spirit regen you would need to be extremely mana starved for spirit to overtake intellect as holy paladins' most important stat. Still, I expect gemming to be less strict about intellect eventually, due to supposedly stronger socket bonuses on Cataclysm gear (also weaker gems compared to WotLK ones). Things like purple int/spi gems in blue sockets or orange int/haste , -crit and -mastery ones for yellow sockets may be more ideal than just filling everything with red +int gems.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby cerwillis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:24 am

I don't want to derail any useful conversations that you guys are having here, and perhaps this deserves its own thread, but here goes. I did some looking around this weekend for current info on racial bonuses, and I didn't find anything more current than about a year ago. Perhaps my google-fu is failing me. Anyhow, if anyone has any links or beta exp to share, I'd appreciate it.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Chicken » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:47 am

cerwillis wrote:I don't want to derail any useful conversations that you guys are having here, and perhaps this deserves its own thread, but here goes. I did some looking around this weekend for current info on racial bonuses, and I didn't find anything more current than about a year ago. Perhaps my google-fu is failing me. Anyhow, if anyone has any links or beta exp to share, I'd appreciate it.
The changes aren't all that extensive, here's a list:

Alliance

Draenei:
- Heroic Presence now only gives hit to yourself.
- Gemcutting now increases Jewelcrafting skill by 10, up from 5.

Dwarf:
- Find Treasure has been removed.
- Explorer is a new racial, and gives +15 Archaeology and allows you to survey faster.
- Mace Specialization now only increases expertise by 3.

Gnome:
- Expansive Mind increases your mana pool by 5% now instead of increasing your intellect.
- Shortblade Specialization is a new racial, giving 3 expertise with daggers and one-handed swords.

Human:
- Every Man for Himself now has a 3 minute cooldown.

Night Elves are unchanged.

If anyone's interested, Worgen Racials can be found here: http://cata.wowhead.com/race=22#racial-traits

Horde

Blood Elf:
- Arcane Torrent gives 15 Focus or Rage for Hunters and Warriors respectively.

Orc:
- Axe Specialiation now only increases Expertise by 3.

Tauren:
- Cultivation now allows you to pick herbs faster in addition to the herbalism skill increase.

Undead:
- Cannibalize now restores mana in addition to restoring health.
- Will of the Forsaken now only shares a 30 second cooldown with similar effects, down from 45 seconds.

Trolls are unchanged.

If anyone's interested, Goblin racials can be found here: http://cata.wowhead.com/race=9#racial-traits

Anything not mentioned hasn't changed.
Last edited by Chicken on Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:49 am

Chicken wrote:Trolls are unchanged.


I'm in ur thread generating 5hps and there's nothing u can do about it
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby cerwillis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:14 am

Thanks Chicken. I guess my rogue will like the expertise on daggers, but that's about it. The archeology bonus for dwarves may prove useful I guess.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Aanar » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:47 am

I think I saw somewhere that Human Spirit was reduced from 5% bonus spirit down to 2% or 3% (sorry no idea where I found it)

Remember how frustrated they got trying to balance Priests' racial spells? And they ended up just scrapping it so all priests had the same spells. In a lot of ways, I wish they would do the same for racials. Either make them all out-of-combat only or at least spend some hard time balancing them.

Weapon racials are annoying. For the same reason they were scrapped from talent trees, they should be scrapped as racials. In place, I think it would be better if the level 1-20 quest rewards and starter weapons emphasized weapon types. For example, instead of dwarf warriors starting with a 2h axe and rogues starting with 2 daggers, have them start with a 2h hammer, and for the rogue consier a hammer MH and dagger offhand. The starter dwarf quests should mostly be hammers then. It's kind of annoying to see a good sword upgrade but know you have to run to stormwind to train it (or in the case of a newb not know what you need to do or where to get sword training).

The worgen & goblin racials just seem to be head and shoulders better than the rest. For cutting-edge progression, it seems like it would be annoying to feel like you need to do a paid race change just for an extra 1% bonus. I've heard this is already the case where people feel pressure to be a orc for dks, hunters, warlocks, warriors, and trolls for most caster classes just because their in-combat racial cooldowns are so much better. (Dranie hit is pretty good too for ench shaman anyway. Casters not really because they're so overloaded with hit on gear)

If it were up to me, I'd give each race a profession bonus that would give a +10 skill or something and makes crafting/gathering those items a little faster. Something that would proc extras for example would be bad. At least with looking how alchemy turns out for elixers that it's unprofitable to make them unless your elixer specced.


Give each race an out-of-combat bonus. Like the human diplomacy rep bonus and goblin exalted faction discount.

If they keep in-combat ones, I'd scale them such that they feel a little powerful at low level but are effectively obsolete once you get to max level. If Tauren got a flat +100 hp for example, you'd feel you can't die at level one (not that you really can anymore anyway) but isn't going to matter enough at 85 to bother race changing for. And if orc's blood rage was a flat +50 str then when you tried out an orc and tauren warrior, they'd feel different but not be a balance problem at the end game. Problem with this of course is all the complaining about "my worthless racials" that they'd get.

I rolled a dwarf priest back in the day largely due to their fear ward spell. But of course that all changed. With spirit being important now and none of the dwarf racials helping casters, it's tempting to pay the $25 to make her human. I like her twirly braids when she casts too much though! :o
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Chicken » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:04 am

Aanar wrote:I think I saw somewhere that Human Spirit was reduced from 5% bonus spirit down to 2% or 3% (sorry no idea where I found it)

It's kind of annoying to see a good sword upgrade but know you have to run to stormwind to train it (or in the case of a newb not know what you need to do or where to get sword training).
(Note: I just cut out most of your post to reduce quote size, I did read it, I just don't really have anything to respond to about it)

The Human Spirit is already 3% on the live servers right now, not sure when they changed it exactly, I would've mentioned it otherwise. And I like the idea you had with the preferred weapon types, but 4.0 will at least remove the need to travel to all kinds of cities to pick up your missing weapon skills; much like they're removing the need to level weapon skills, they're also removing the need to train them at all. You start off immediately able to use all weapons your class can use.
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Re: Ask a beta tester thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:22 am

Aanar wrote: It's kind of annoying to see a good sword upgrade but know you have to run to stormwind to train it (or in the case of a newb not know what you need to do or where to get sword training).


you don't train weapon skills anymore afaik
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