Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Bobness » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:40 am

Geez, every iteration of prot Talents/abilities is becoming less & less coherent.

Now I know it's not the same, but I write applications for a living, if one of my development cycles followed the same lines as Cata prot Paladin changes my ass would have been fired months ago.

So we go back to limited vindication debuff/ CS & Hotr are exclusive, consecration is now a limp biscuit with a 20 second gap for chasing adds that can only be accomodated by tab target / Holy wrath.

Ok i can live with that, but warriors have been crying for the last two years over this kind of issue which was answered by "Thundercrate" which has subsequently been removed & thunderclap buffed considerably.

Holy Shield is still a failure... are we the block Tank or not ?

It seems we're going slightly backwards at this point.

Disappointing.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Noradin » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:49 am

Pizbit wrote:http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/1902-Uldum-Tol-vir-and-Ramkahen-Blue-Posts

ShoR looks to be returning and prot's rotations firming up and looking kinda cool, final judgment on seeing release day implementation though haha :)


Still don't like it. Its just the HS from the last build with damage on activation on top.
The problems HS had were not addressed. Who would ever cast it without 3 HP?

It should cost some mana and consume HP.

It should give the full HS even at 0 HP.

There should be no baseline damage, just damage depending on the HP consumed, but it should not scale linear but more like 0.8, 1.7, 2.
Normally you would want to use it at 2 but sometimes you use it at 1 because something just added or at 3 if you want to prepare for a spawn/taunt/threat reset.
(First can't be 1 as long as we don't have a surplus of abilities for our GCD.)

That way ther would at least be some interaction with HP. Like now we always build up 3 HP and then dump it on HS/ShoR. Its cluncy and not fun at all.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Arincia » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:35 am

If the made HS baseline 15% block rating with 4 second duration at 0 hp then SoR just added duration and damage based on that wouldn't be so bad. Hell doing some simple math we will need more blocked per amount via mastery or talents or we will not scale at all with warriors. They have exponential scaling while only get linear. To put in some long list of numbers: (basic assumption is that if 100 mastery=1% gain then warrior gains 1% crit block and block rating)

warrior:

*0% to each*
25% avoidence
30% block rate
10% crit block rate

100 attacks

25 dodge/parry
27 blocked
3 crit blocked
55 hits
= 55+27*.7+3*.4= 75.1

*10% each*
25% avoidence
40% block rate
20% crit block

25 dodge/parry
32 blocked
8 crit blocked
35 unblocked
=35+32*.7+8*.4=60.6

*20% each*
25% dodge/parry
50% block rate
30% crit block

25 dodge parry
35 blocked
15 crit blocked
25 unblocked
=25+35*(.7)+15*(.4)= 55.5

*30% each*
25% dodge/parry
60% block rate
40% crit block

25 dodge/parry
36 blocked
24 crit blocked
15 unblocked
=15+36*(.7)+24(.4)= 49.8


*paladin*
25% avoidence
36% block rating

25 dodge/parry
36 blocked
39 hit
=39+36*.7=64.2
(equal but 20% more block rating to be equal 36/30)

*to 12%*
25% avoidence
48% block rating

25 dodge/parry
48 blocked
27 hit
=27+48*.7= 60.6
(20% more scaling to stay the same)

*to 24%*
25% avoidence
60% block rating

25 dodge/parry
60 blocked
15 hit
=15+60*.7=57% (short by 1.5%)

*corrected to 29%*
25% avoidence
65% block rating

25 dodge/parry
65 block
10 hit
=10+65*.7=55.5%
(45% more scaling to stay the same)

*block capped*
25% avoidence
75% block

25 dodge/parry
75 block
0 hit
= 75*.7= 52.5
(warriors at 30% have 49.8% damage reduction we only have 52.5% at block cap)

SO yeah either we end up block capped and warriors pass us up average damage taken over time or we need a way to block more per to hit (to put us on exponential scaling equal to warriors). It just bad design no matter how its cut. If you assume them to be balanced at endgame (and no ilevel inflation like last time) then warrior and paladin are only equal at the start and end of the expansion. If true we are blocking to much because we are a linear design and warriors are under the curve cause they scale to well with mastery as a % gain. If not true we could block capped but we would still have huge balance issues to being block capped and taking less damage then warrior. Of course this falls apart if crit block and rating scale diffrent for warrior but just the same its best to have us have exponential scaling as well to be balanced. (also i did not include shield block which just further pushes warriors ahead of us. It should almost be made into barkskin/divine protection for them for balancing purposes)
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby milali » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:40 am

soooo shield of the righteousness is back

from mmo champ

Shield of the Righteous -- Now consumes Holy Power to cause damage.

Holy Shield -- Now a passive ability that causes your Shield of the Righteous to provide 5% block per stack of Holy Power consumed. In other words, you never click Holy Shield. You just click Shield of the Righteous and buff yourself.

Hammer of the Righteous -- Now generates Holy Power but shares a cooldown with Crusader Strike. Almost all talents that affect one or the other will affect both. The intention is you use Crusader Strike -> Shield of the Righteous for single target and Hammer of the Righteous -> Shield of the Righteous for multitarget.

Avenger's Shield -- No real change, but it still hits pretty hard. Both CS and HotR can proc Grand Crusader to lower the Avenger's Shield cooldown.

Vindication -- can be caused only by Crusader Strike or Hammer of the Righteous.

Holy Wrath -- With the above changes, we think Prot paladins have enough rotational buttons to hit, so we are downplaying Holy Wrath. Holy Wrath is really intended as a Ret filler spell (for when other attacks are on cooldown). Prot could technically use Holy Wrath, but we aren't providing any talent hooks.

Consecration -- Now on a 10 sec duration with a 30 sec cooldown. The Hallowed Ground talent makes it cheaper and hit harder -- it does not affect duration. Use Consecration when you need it, but you can't spam it. This is consistent with the AE changes we are making to all tanks.

With these changes in mind, Prot will be thinking about buttons such as these:

Single Target: Judgement, Crusader Strike, Shield of the Righteous, Avenger's Shield.
Multi-target: Judgement, Consecration, Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, Avenger's Shield, possibly Exorcism.

None of this includes things like Seals, Inquisition, defensive cooldowns, Word of Glory, etc.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Noradin » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:34 am

@milali: You are 2 pages late.

And warriors aren't scaling exponential. They are scaling quadratic at most.
(In fact I haven't ever seen an exponential function in WoW. What you mean are power functions/allometric functions.)
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:02 am

Still a boring Holy Power implementation that requires no decision making nor any monitoring. Playing keepy uppy with a Holy Shield buff for 15% block rating is dull.

They really have no idea where they're going with this.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby badgermonkey » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:17 am

Lieris wrote:Still a boring Holy Power implementation that requires no decision making nor any monitoring. Playing keepy uppy with a Holy Shield buff for 15% block rating is dull.

They really have no idea where they're going with this.


Also, as other people have said, we're supposed to be the "block" tank, yet we have to be able to keep our block up, else we have far worse mitigation than Warriors.

Thinking of maining DK tank in Cata though, they're looking fun!
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:39 am

Weren't they supposed to make playing a paladin more "interesting?"

In WotLK, we use: {Judge - Holy shield - Hammer - Shield - Consecration} for our damage no matter how many 'things' there were. In cat, for single targets they are wanting:

We are now using {Crusader Strike - Judgement - Shield of the Righteous (when we get to 3 holy power) - Avenger's Shield.} Right now, we are going to be doing:
(this is assuming that they still plan on making Crusader Strike a 3sec cooldown, something they had mentioned last week)

Code: Select all
0.0S__1.5s____3.0s____4.5s____6.0s_____7.5S____9.0S____10.5S____12.0S____13.5S___15.0S____16.5S____18.0S
-AS----CS----Judge-----CS----<]X[>------CS----Shield-----CS-----Judge-----CS-----<]X[>-----CS---- Shield

With the <]X[> being a consecration every 30 seconds, Avenger's Shield when we whittle the cooldown off, or Holy Wrath; which they said is currently unsupported in prot. Really? :( This is our choice? This is our 'depth'? A very set rotation with a mediocre spell that we are locked into using? I have a hard time thinking that we would indeed replace a Crusader Strike with a harder hitting ability because it builds up the Holy Power Charges so that we can fire off Shield of the Righteous. This beta push that they are talking about is uninspiring.

And when under this idea are we going to use Word of Glory? Shield of the Righteous is built up as:
It will be a hard-hitting button, especially with 3 stacks. I'd guess your highest damage ability.


There is NEVER a time where I am going to trade this for the horridly anemic heal that it is currently.

I'm hesitant to say that they are clueless, but I'm also not going to say that they aren't. When they said that they had worked something up for Ret, and felt it would be good to place into the whole class, I thought it was something that had a lot more polish than this, something that didn't feel like it was absolutely shoehorned in there.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Chunes » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:46 am

The single target rotation with all the gaps in it wouldn't be so bad were it not for ShoR and CS sharing a cooldown -_-.

It is a little unnerving not having something to push every GCD like in the current model, but that was the type of rotation we had back in BC if I recall correctly. Assuming threat is tuned properly for not always having an active attack to use, those extra gcd's are pretty welcome in my opinion for Hands, dispells, re-sealing on the fly (should there ever be a need to), etc.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:55 am

Chunes wrote:those extra gcd's are pretty welcome in my opinion for Hands, dispells, re-sealing on the fly (should there ever be a need to), etc.


True but there was nothing stopping you interrupting your rotation to cast one of those anyway.

Ret is looking really attractive right now in comparison. It's like cat DPS but with less John Madden.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:02 am

So I'd like to point out that the same info from GC got posted about 3 times after I posted it initially.
HEY GUYS, READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Chunes » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:47 am

Lieris wrote:
Chunes wrote:those extra gcd's are pretty welcome in my opinion for Hands, dispells, re-sealing on the fly (should there ever be a need to), etc.


True but there was nothing stopping you interrupting your rotation to cast one of those anyway.

Ret is looking really attractive right now in comparison. It's like cat DPS but with less John Madden.


What I'm saying is that we won't have to interrupt anything now with the built in open GCD's. It will be a matter of 3-5 seconds of "can my target wait to be dispelled/Handed" worst case scenario, best case being "oh, I just hit a free GCD and bob needs dispelled now, *cleanse*"
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Marblehead » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:01 am

Chunes wrote:
Lieris wrote:
Chunes wrote:those extra gcd's are pretty welcome in my opinion for Hands, dispells, re-sealing on the fly (should there ever be a need to), etc.


True but there was nothing stopping you interrupting your rotation to cast one of those anyway.

Ret is looking really attractive right now in comparison. It's like cat DPS but with less John Madden.


What I'm saying is that we won't have to interrupt anything now with the built in open GCD's. It will be a matter of 3-5 seconds of "can my target wait to be dispelled/Handed" worst case scenario, best case being "oh, I just hit a free GCD and bob needs dispelled now, *cleanse*"

I know that Cleanse is just an example, but I'd like to remind you that Cleanse for prot will be only poison/disease and cost 14% of base mana (i.e 800ish mana at lvl80).

Anyway, any abilities left to fill the gaps are totally situational. Ending a 5-minute fight with 30 unspent GCDs isn't my idea of fun and it denotes flawed mechanic design.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:07 am

Holy Shield -- Now a passive ability that causes your Shield of the Righteous to provide 5% block per stack of Holy Power consumed. In other words, you never click Holy Shield. You just click Shield of the Righteous and buff yourself.


I wonder if after the initial cast - every application of ShoR thereafter will refresh the buff -- also, what happens if you originally have the 3HoPow buff then you do a ShoR with just 1 HoPow, will it then the buff be replaced by the weaker one.
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Re: Shield of Righteousness possibly going away

Postby Shathus » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:33 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Holy Shield -- Now a passive ability that causes your Shield of the Righteous to provide 5% block per stack of Holy Power consumed. In other words, you never click Holy Shield. You just click Shield of the Righteous and buff yourself.


I wonder if after the initial cast - every application of ShoR thereafter will refresh the buff -- also, what happens if you originally have the 3HoPow buff then you do a ShoR with just 1 HoPow, will it then the buff be replaced by the weaker one.


I would imagine this will be the case. Which means we'll likely never want to use SotR w/o 3 stacks, at least when we care about reducing damage as much as possible.

Heh, I can imagine trying to bash a boss with your shield and getting the message "a more powerful spell is already active" (though that's going away too isn't it?)
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