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31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Malthrax » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:20 am

Sharlos wrote:Can't they make our ShoR generate HP and use it instead of Crusader Strike?

They could turn ShoR into a mock "holy power dump". Making it useable only when Holy Shield is active and have it do escalating damage based on the amount of time left on the current Holy Shield buff (depleting it in the process). Sorta like the old-old Seal/Judge mechanic.

Instead of "IMACHARGINMALAZORS" it'd be "IMACHARGINMAHSHEELDZ".
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Thyre » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:43 am

Whatever they want to do.

Taking away ShoR would decrease my personal fun about 80%. I started playing Prot end of Classic. It was boring but the "Blockthing" catched me.

I have allways missed my Shildslam (was Warrior in Classic) as THE move for a shieldtank an i was more than happy when we got our version in Wotlk.

I realy don t want to go back to BC times without a shieldattack. It is just so muuuuuuch fun to crash your shield in faces. No matter how hard it hits allone the animation is just fun. Btw i allways missed a big bang sound when ShoR hits.


I am a fan of using crusader strike. No Problem there. But i don t understand why they make it all so strange.

It just looks so simpel to me (as a noob ...)

1) Holyshield gives you 15% Block for 10 sek. 1 Point HoPo gives you 10 Sek more. 2 Ponits 10 sek more. 3 Points gives us 30 sek duration +10 % increas ShoR Crit.

2) HotR saber lash effect, Cons, Holywrath ( no saber lash effect and stuns allways btw like shockwave) HS/Inq for AoE

3) HotR (Saber lash effect = more damge agains 1 singel mob) ShoR, CS, HS/Inq, for singel target

4) Grand Crudaser. Your CS have a 10/20 % Chance to be followed bei a ShoR. Critchance if the following ShoR increaed bei 50/100%


Whats the point of being a shieldtank if we are not using it really. Why do we have to be THAT much diffrent from warrior in this point ? Both are shieldtanks so both will of cource also as an attacktool.

I am more than a littel bit frustrated seeing ShoR going away and instead using things like holy wrath ...in singel an aoe fights.... whats the point of this change....
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Arincia » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:55 am

Arjuna wrote:
Lumennon wrote:
Arjuna wrote:because I see warriors getting +15% block baseline...and we don't...

Probably accurate. They get it baseline, we have to work for it, at least in the current iteration. The reasoning behind it was that warriors need to work harder to maintain 20% attack speed reduction and 10% physical damage debuff, while we get it for free as we go about our usual rotation.

But don't they get rage from their shout? And bonus threat from the TC?

...and 4GCDs compared to 2GCDs? weee...


AND they are removing our shield slam! :(


Never mind they can spam shield block (10 range no cooldown)and its still +100% to block ,so 15% base block and then hit shield block to get 115% block....

So yeah no else concerned they haven't tried to address this yet in beta?

(as a side note any else feel like blizz is proping up warrior to be THE tank again for another expansion?)
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby mavfin » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:28 am

Arincia wrote:(as a side note any else feel like blizz is proping up warrior to be THE tank again for another expansion?)


Only the people who think the sky is falling. They're in the middle of completely re-working paladins, they keep saying it's not done yet, but, omg, the sky is falling, and the warriors are coming!

Uh, whatever...

(By the way, I'm sure the spammable shield block is going away, too. The -cooldown on shield mastery that makes it so probably isn't intended to remain.)
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:37 am

mavfin wrote:
Arincia wrote:(as a side note any else feel like blizz is proping up warrior to be THE tank again for another expansion?)


Only the people who think the sky is falling. They're in the middle of completely re-working paladins, they keep saying it's not done yet, but, omg, the sky is falling, and the warriors are coming!

Uh, whatever...

(By the way, I'm sure the spammable shield block is going away, too. The -cooldown on shield mastery that makes it so probably isn't intended to remain.)


I don't think the sky is falling when it comes at warriors, but I really don't like what they're doing to paladins when it comes to the whole swapping ShoR for CS.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby mavfin » Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:56 am

Klaudandus wrote:I don't think the sky is falling when it comes at warriors, but I really don't like what they're doing to paladins when it comes to the whole swapping ShoR for CS.


Oh, I can see that part, definitely. But the post with the tinfoil hat conspiracy that Blizzard is making warriors the #1 tank again was a bit over the top, I thought.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Fenris » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:09 am

So far,i'm still lost about what they are aiming for every time i look at the changes...

For examples,atm i dont see how they'll be able to make us use different rotations for single/aoe with the avaiable toolbox :?
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:15 am

mavfin wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I don't think the sky is falling when it comes at warriors, but I really don't like what they're doing to paladins when it comes to the whole swapping ShoR for CS.


Oh, I can see that part, definitely. But the post with the tinfoil hat conspiracy that Blizzard is making warriors the #1 tank again was a bit over the top, I thought.


My guess is others feel like this because warriors have gotten quite a good revamp for cata, specially with their AoE dot-bomb, where as they take stuff away from our toolbox, juts because they realized that instead of having one rotation, we would have two depending on single or multi targets.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby steadypal » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:40 am

i really dont get when GC said we dont get 15% br baseline cause we dont have to work for the tclap and demoralizing shout? wtf? we will have to blow one GCD on holy wrath to get the CD on mobs, and judgement on the others which is still single target..


warriors hit 2 buttons for aoe applications? so idk. pretty lame excuse


hopefully soon they will realize this and just make 15% baseline for pallies to, and then give us an actual cool and exciting use of holy power...



1 more thing, if we were supposed to still be the add tank, why do warriors have more AOE abilities than us now? a consecrate,, a aoe rend application, and shockwave.. we just have consecrate and holy wrath
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:48 am

steadypal wrote:i really dont get when GC said we dont get 15% br baseline cause we dont have to work for the tclap and demoralizing shout? wtf? we will have to blow one GCD on holy wrath to get the CD on mobs, and judgement on the others which is still single target..


warriors hit 2 buttons for aoe applications? so idk. pretty lame excuse


hopefully soon they will realize this and just make 15% baseline for pallies to, and then give us an actual cool and exciting use of holy power...


Specially after he tried to sell the whole warriors block less often but for more and paladins block more often but for less and then runs in the opposite direction. I swear GC needs to lay off the mescaline >.>
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Xenix » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am

Sabindeus wrote:i would, no joke, choke a bitch if they took my Shield Slam away

We have temporarily disabled Shield of Righteousness.

Bitches better prepare to get choked it seems. :mrgreen:
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:21 am

Xenix wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:i would, no joke, choke a bitch if they took my Shield Slam away

We have temporarily disabled Shield of Righteousness.

Bitches better prepare to get choked it seems. :mrgreen:


I think what's aggravating it's the way they're trying to sell the removal of ShoR. They should stop trying to forcefeed us CS.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Lieris » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:35 am

mavfin wrote:
Arincia wrote:(as a side note any else feel like blizz is proping up warrior to be THE tank again for another expansion?)


Only the people who think the sky is falling. They're in the middle of completely re-working paladins, they keep saying it's not done yet, but, omg, the sky is falling, and the warriors are coming!

Uh, whatever...

(By the way, I'm sure the spammable shield block is going away, too. The -cooldown on shield mastery that makes it so probably isn't intended to remain.)


Sure but it's important that we voice our discontent if this is the design direction they are taking otherwise they will assume we are happy with it.

If our holy power mechanic is casting CS on cooldown just to keep Holy Shield up (boring) and we lose ShOR then I am done with the spec. Their current design that they are floating is completely unappealing to me.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:52 am

Malthrax wrote:
Sharlos wrote:Can't they make our ShoR generate HP and use it instead of Crusader Strike?

They could turn ShoR into a mock "holy power dump". Making it useable only when Holy Shield is active and have it do escalating damage based on the amount of time left on the current Holy Shield buff (depleting it in the process). Sorta like the old-old Seal/Judge mechanic.

Instead of "IMACHARGINMALAZORS" it'd be "IMACHARGINMAHSHEELDZ".
Some kind of interaction along these lines does seem more interesting. They could also of course just go for making it a straight holy power using damage ability, though that'd require an increase to Holy Shield's duration. A Holy Shield duration increase wouldn't be bad in general, because as I've said before, it's a bit silly to have the new Holy Power mechanic only be used for keeping up Holy Shield simply due to it's short duration.

I actually kind of like the "consuming Holy Shield" idea as well though. It'd cause an interesting interaction in that the ability might hit hard, but just using it whenever is available still wouldn't be the optimal course of action. Instead it'd encourage you to wait until there's as little duration as possible left on Holy Shield, and preferably wait until you have three Holy Power, so you could then use ShoR and immediately put Holy Shield back up; you could even make it scale based on how much Holy Power you used on Holy Shield. That way keeping up Holy Shield feels a bit less passive as well, as it'd also provide a good noticeable threat boost once you consume it with a Shield of Righteousness.

Avenger's Shield would, alternatively, be a good fit for a mechanic like that as well; so long as it's an increase to it's effectiveness, but not a requirement for it to be used that is. It's still our primary pulling tool too.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Archeth » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:15 am

mavfin wrote:
Arincia wrote:(as a side note any else feel like blizz is proping up warrior to be THE tank again for another expansion?)


Only the people who think the sky is falling. They're in the middle of completely re-working paladins, they keep saying it's not done yet, but, omg, the sky is falling, and the warriors are coming!

Uh, whatever...

(By the way, I'm sure the spammable shield block is going away, too. The -cooldown on shield mastery that makes it so probably isn't intended to remain.)

Not the sky is falling, but their iterative design process for paladins (and other tanks) really does nothing to convince me that they're actually thinking things through right now, it just feels like they're in this huge "wouldn't it be cool..." brainstorming session while the game's already in beta. For some reason they want to make a previous signature retribution attack baseline for all paladins which is currently proving too much for at least prot, and will most likely make removing 1/5 of our current rotational skills mandatory.

We get no feedback whatsoever if prot paladins will end up being the only melee spec without a reliable interrupt, and if yes, why. We get lots of feedback how they don't want warriors and paladins feeling too similar, which usually ends up with big changes and nerfs to the respective paladin ability. Meanwhile they give warriors, who are supposed to be "fine" with their AoE tank tools, consecration and pestilence. Baseline block CD vs. having to work to even make ours competitive - as a tradeoff for what, being able to apply certain debuffs more easily?

I know paladins are officially behind warriors in terms of how far they are with our Cata redesign, but nonetheless right now I mostly see them taking away tools and replacing them with often (far) inferior options while the directly comparable shield tank class can have the cake and eat it. So far I'm not impressed with Holy Power ideas outside of the ret tree, at all.
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