31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

[Klaudandus]

Some admins have said the blizz guys actually check these threads -- I really hope that's the case and they listen to us. They arent very happy in the Beta forums either for that matter.

ShoR has become an iconic single-threat attack -- CS is not. It makes more sense to keep CS for ret only and let ShoR stay as a Prot ability that generates HP.

[Grehn|Skipjack]

As much as I love smacking things with my shield, hitting things with my weapon is really tempting. I've waggled my fingers to hold aggro for far too long.

[Arincia]

Well one thing I'm suggesting (though doubt it would be taken seriously) is a proposal like this for the Holy Power system.

2 point talent for CS to have its CD reduced by 4 seconds, 1 handed weapon only, causes 25% additional weapon damage as holy damage

SOR have no CD and SoR will do damage/effect based on the amount of HP (cant be use with 0 HP)
1 HP X amount of holy damage and 1% damage reduction for 3 seconds
2 HP 50% more the normal and 2% damage reduction for 4 seconds damage of 1HP
3 HP you hit the opponent for twice as much as 1HP and gain 3% damage reduction for 5 seconds.

HoR 8 sec CD requires HP to use (again 0 HP= cant use)
100% weapon damage 8 sec cooldown.
1 HP 60% additional weapon damage
2 HP hit 2 additional targets
3 HP Reduce the cooldown by 50%.

Divine plea 25% mana regeneration and 5 HP over the next 15 seconds one minute cooldown.

Avengers Shield
1 HP Interrupts for 2 seconds instead of silences
2 HP Reduce its cooldown to 8 seconds
3 HP Hits not additional targets but twice as much damage

I'm fairly sure none of these would get implemented but something like this at least creates a interactive tanking style that is different from warrior/bear/dk.

[Klaudandus]

It also runs the risk of being overly complicated and too dependent on hit/expertise in case it requires a successful blow for it to generate HP.

[Arincia]

Probably right about that. But then again that's on of the main issues of HP system right now. Ret and holy won
t HP generation issue but we have to deal with dodge/miss/parry for our generation. A better solution could be a 2 part system with one as a passive but steady amount and another that's user done (aka CS).
Potential problems with passive:

Based on miss/dodge/parry/block, being hit, or damage taken/dealt makes it RNG and as one increases the rate of HP generation decreases.
Going back to mimic our current Divine Plea for mana regen for HP is a step back into a system they want to get rid of.
Creating N more ways to generate it doesn't help as well as there still subject to miss/dodge/parry though you end up with more in the end.
Additional procs for more ends up being RNG but the proc is the problem (subject to RNG so you can see bad streaks and good streaks)
If we don't have the potential to reasonably within 5% chance get enough HP for maintaining HS the system as a whole will not work sense were expected to be balanced around 100% up time of 3 HP HS.
Easiest way me be to add a proc chance to generate more HP with a lower cooldown on CS or another source with CS to generate HP.

[steadypal]

what i'd like to see happen with CS would be talent to take off the CD and lower the mana cost drastically so it can be spammable like devastate, make it feel like a true spam ability, would let us stack HP quick if needed also...

[KysenMurrin]

They really do need to make Holy Power more interesting for Prot, and they can't do it with the way things are now. If you an only fit 3-4 Crusader Strikes into Holy Shield's duration, then you'll never use it for anything else and it'll just not feel fun.

What we need is a second Holy Power based move to use, and to do that they need to do some combination of extending Holy Shield duration, reducing Crusader Strike's cooldown, or increasing the number of ways Holy Power is generated. We need to be able to fit enough Holy Power generation into Holy Shield's duration that it feels like there's a choice on what to use it on.

As I've said before, I think extending Holy Shield to 30 seconds and giving a random proc somewhere for Holy Power might do the trick. Personally I think tying additional income to avoidance or block would be the best way, as it gives Paladins something analogous to Warriors' Hold the Line.

The second Holy Power consumer could be a lot of things - ShoR for a big high threat strike, Holy Wrath to tie it with Grand Crusader (with a base damage + Holy Power, not doing zero if you don't have any), or something new, but we do need a second one to make it interesting.

[Ryyu]

I like the idea of SotR becoming our templars verdict.

Or, maybe, Shield bash?

[Noradin]

Why do they think our shield attack is to similar to warrior's shild bash and remove ours?
Its always our abilities that get changed if they feel they are similar to what warriors have, why not change theirs for once?

[Arjuna]

Why do they think our shield attack is to similar to warrior's shild bash and remove ours?
Its always our abilities that get changed if they feel they are similar to what warriors have, why not change theirs for once?

...but they did change theirs...they gave them consecrate...


so they remove our abilities because they are too similar to warriors, and they gives warriors abilities similar to us...

[Sharlos]

Why do they think our shield attack is to similar to warrior's shild bash and remove ours?
Its always our abilities that get changed if they feel they are similar to what warriors have, why not change theirs for once?

Because they've had Sheild Slam since vanilla?

[Arjuna]

wait a bit...how accurate are the talent trees on wowhead?

because I see warriors getting +15% block baseline...and we don't...

[Arjuna]

Why do they think our shield attack is to similar to warrior's shild bash and remove ours?
Its always our abilities that get changed if they feel they are similar to what warriors have, why not change theirs for once?

Because they've had Sheild Slam since vanilla?

we have had consecration since vanilla too, why are they getting it?

[Lumennon]

because I see warriors getting +15% block baseline...and we don't...

Probably accurate. They get it baseline, we have to work for it, at least in the current iteration. The reasoning behind it was that warriors need to work harder to maintain 20% attack speed reduction and 10% physical damage debuff, while we get it for free as we go about our usual rotation.

[Arjuna]

because I see warriors getting +15% block baseline...and we don't...

Probably accurate. They get it baseline, we have to work for it, at least in the current iteration. The reasoning behind it was that warriors need to work harder to maintain 20% attack speed reduction and 10% physical damage debuff, while we get it for free as we go about our usual rotation.

But don't they get rage from their shout? And bonus threat from the TC?

...and 4GCDs compared to 2GCDs? weee...


AND they are removing our shield slam!