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31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Ryyu » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:34 pm

@Freelancer

If you then add in all the hands, divine guardian, racials, pots/health stones, trinkets, Bubble etc were running fast out of room. I mean its still manageable with macros, but it is getting rather full.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Arincia » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:46 am

I'd imagine conviction would be a huge threat talent to take. 3% damage/healing done per critical stacking up to 3 times for 9% more damage last up to 30 seconds. Given a likely 20% base crit on everything (and crits on HoR giving judgement a forced crit). In 30 seconds that 20 GCDs toss out at least 2 for HS thats 18 GCDs. with a 80% chance to not critical in 18 hits a row that's a 1.8% chance that we would not get a critical.

One problem with your threat set is that it only has 1 point in judgement of just. But as for eye for any eye here's some idea on the type of dps you could possibly expect out of it.

Assumptions:
a base attack speed of 2.0 seconds for 20k damage a hit
30% avoidence
block rating of 30% for 30% damage reduction

70% of all attacks will hit to have a 10% chance to proc it so a 7% activation rate.
of that 30% will be blocked for 30% and the remaining 40% full damage
the block amount that can be reflected back is 14k damage
the unblocked amount reflected back would be 20k damage

blocked amount(block rate/unavoidable amount)+unblocked amount(unavoidable amount-block rate/unavoidable amount)

so

14k(.30/.70)+20(.40/70)= 17.4k damage on average (with 3 stacks of convection 18.99k)

at a 7% activation rate we get

.07*17.4k=1.22k dps when getting hit (or 1.33k dps with 3 stacks of convection)

Of course it should be easy enough to adjust it but already it points out a few problems with it.

First is that is as your avoidance continues to increase the dps will decrease as a result.

This example had 30% avoidance if we had no avoidance this would
20(.7)+14(.3)= 18.2k average or 1.82k dps
at 50% avoidance its
20(.2/.5)+14(.3/.5)= 16.4k
16.4k*.1*.5=820 dps

It also scales linearly with boss damage increase but gets worse with damage reductions.
If hits go up to 30k (30/20= 150% increase)

1.22k dps*1.5=1.83k dps

However at times of the biggest amount of damage we will also be using our cool downs (ourselves or externals)
to reduce it. Without knowing Guardians reduction ill make 2 examples one at 20% (new DP) and one at 50% (guardian possibly).

DP) 1.22k*.08= 976k dps
guardian 1.22k*.5=610 dps.

Given a 5 minute fight we could possibly see how it would average out. (with no tank swapping)
50 seconds of 20% reduction from DP
10 seconds of 20% from ardent defender
20 seconds of 50% from guardian
leaves 220 seconds of normal averages

(220/300)*1.22k+(60/300)*.8*1.22k+(20/300)*.5*1.22k=1.13k dps averaged out

1.13k/1.22k= 92.6% averaged dps expected then. That's actually higher then i thought it would be.

Anyways point stands that as block rating and avoidance rating go higher bosses would start to hit a lot tougher to keep the same amount of dps.

Taking our example to keep the same dps but with 40% avoidance and 60% block rating (i know extreme)

1.22k=(1-block reduction%)*(block chance on unavoidable hits)*(chance to proc)*(damage per hit)

1.22k=(.7)*(1.0)*(.1)*x
1.22k=.07*x
(1,220/.07)=x
17.4k dmg with block.
17.4k/.70 unblocked amount= 25k hits.

25k/20= 1.25 or 25% increase in amount of damage done.

If also assumed only 50% time being hit but the boss due to tank swaps and other mechanics if we used inquisition (assuming a overall 10% increase in damage) 25k/.55=45k damage per hit to keep same average (for total amount fighting).

Actually given the extreme nature i think it might actually be decent enough to keep as we advance but that remains to be seen where avoidance, block rating, and (possibly) our block amount will be. Of course weighing this over 15% CS crit would a tougher comparison but it something that we have to wait and see.
To many variations in this that mess with it.

Slow vrs higher hits vrs high attack speed and lower hits.
black rating/amount and avoidence as well.

btw short math assuming 30% block rating and 2 sec attack on mobs for reckoning(30% block rating with HS assumed)
1 talent needs 29 hit (58 seconds) to have a 95% chance to fire
2 talents needs 14 hits (28 seconds) to have a 95% chance to fire
3 talents needs needs 8 hits (16 seconds) to have a 95% chance to fire

edit fixed dumb math errs
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Ludiaro » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:03 am

@Mandrollen
Also GbtL is out...dunno how many times people need to say this before we stop seeing builds with it. Read talents. :x
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Chasey » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:03 pm

@Mandrollen
Also GbtL is out...dunno how many times people need to say this before we stop seeing builds with it. Read talents.

Not sure if they said what will be replacing it with so we gotta "make a build up" for now. On top of it this is going to chage sooooo much more before it goes live anyway that we are all just kinda guessing.
I for one like the threat/surv build that Mandrollen made.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Fenris » Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:10 pm

We have temporarily disabled Shield of Righteousness.

We're working on the basic Prot rotations right now, and with Shield of Righteousness in addition to Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Consecrate, Avenger's Shield and Holy Wrath, there was just a lot going on. Shield seemed like the least interesting of those abilities -- really Shield and Hammer just seem to be single-target and multitarget versions of the same ability, especially without block scaling. Shield also felt like a duplicate of Shield Slam, which doesn't help in trying to differentiate the two Prot trees. Frankly, we'd rather make Avenger's Shield and Hammer of the Righteous cooler than they are today.

It's too early to call this a permanent change. We still have a lot to consider, such as the damage of Hammer vs. Shield, how different we want the AE vs. single-target Prot attacks to be, and how much Holy Power considerations occupy a Prot paladin.

If we keep Shield of Righteousness, we need to figure out its role relative to Hammer. We don't want it to be just swap one button for another for AE fights, and we don't want you to have to use both on cooldown since we are giving Prot paladins more things to manage in Cataclysm.

:?
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:49 pm

I can see their point with HotR and ShoR when you look on live - when you're up against a single target they're both 6-second cooldown, hard-hitting attacks that hit for similar amounts of Holy damage (though HotR is scaling better now, especially with T10).

Still, removing ShoR is going to be a hard sell.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby knaughty » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:05 pm

Arincia wrote:I'd imagine conviction would be a huge threat talent to take. 3% damage/healing done per critical stacking up to 3 times for 9% more damage last up to 30 seconds. Given a likely 20% base crit on everything (and crits on HoR giving judgement a forced crit). In 30 seconds that 20 GCDs toss out at least 2 for HS thats 18 GCDs. with a 80% chance to not critical in 18 hits a row that's a 1.8% chance that we would not get a critical.

You forgot that white hits can also proc Conviction.

Assuming a 2.0 swing speed and no haste (apparently all tanking weapons will be same speed, and not "fast" or "slow") that's another 15 chances to proc Conviction.

I also disagree with your "20%" number - I'm in basically full 277 gear and have 12% crit, and the "3% crit on target" talents seem to be gone.

At 12% crit, there's a 1.5% chance the stack will fall off.
At 15% crit, there's a 0.5% chance the stack will fall off.

Conviction is going to be very good if either our in-raid crit chance is 15%+, or you also take the crit-chance modifying talents.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:07 pm

Fenris wrote:
We have temporarily disabled Shield of Righteousness.

We're working on the basic Prot rotations right now, and with Shield of Righteousness in addition to Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Consecrate, Avenger's Shield and Holy Wrath, there was just a lot going on. Shield seemed like the least interesting of those abilities -- really Shield and Hammer just seem to be single-target and multitarget versions of the same ability, especially without block scaling. Shield also felt like a duplicate of Shield Slam, which doesn't help in trying to differentiate the two Prot trees. Frankly, we'd rather make Avenger's Shield and Hammer of the Righteous cooler than they are today.

It's too early to call this a permanent change. We still have a lot to consider, such as the damage of Hammer vs. Shield, how different we want the AE vs. single-target Prot attacks to be, and how much Holy Power considerations occupy a Prot paladin.

If we keep Shield of Righteousness, we need to figure out its role relative to Hammer. We don't want it to be just swap one button for another for AE fights, and we don't want you to have to use both on cooldown since we are giving Prot paladins more things to manage in Cataclysm.

:?




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He can take back his Holy Power back for all I care, don't touch my SoR!
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Ludiaro » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:29 pm

Chasey wrote:
@Mandrollen
Also GbtL is out...dunno how many times people need to say this before we stop seeing builds with it. Read talents.

Not sure if they said what will be replacing it with so we gotta "make a build up" for now. On top of it this is going to chage sooooo much more before it goes live anyway that we are all just kinda guessing.
I for one like the threat/surv build that Mandrollen made.


That's like saying that we should spec till clarity of purpose in the holy tree cause it might change any time now. For now GbtL is better off ignored till we get a useful talent to consider it, and Grand Crusader and Sacred Duty seem to be top priority of concern atm, rather than GbtL.
But hey! Everyone is free to do as they please, and i'm not here to tell anyone how they should spec, just saying that GbtL is currently just saving space so we don't get further behind the Talent count comparing to other tanks. Yes we need 40 points for 19 talents filled, while Warriors need 39 for 20 filled(Each in protection tree). Still too early, I know.


Why, oh WHY did ShoR got shafted?! :x Didn't reducing CS to 3sec Cd made it simpler? What's the problem of having a holy shield slam?
Understand the reason to do this but it wasn't the only way.

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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:34 pm

I'll finally be able to delete my ShoR sound effect add on. Neat.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Arincia » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:38 pm

knaughty wrote:
Arincia wrote:I'd imagine conviction would be a huge threat talent to take. 3% damage/healing done per critical stacking up to 3 times for 9% more damage last up to 30 seconds. Given a likely 20% base crit on everything (and crits on HoR giving judgement a forced crit). In 30 seconds that 20 GCDs toss out at least 2 for HS thats 18 GCDs. with a 80% chance to not critical in 18 hits a row that's a 1.8% chance that we would not get a critical.

You forgot that white hits can also proc Conviction.

Assuming a 2.0 swing speed and no haste (apparently all tanking weapons will be same speed, and not "fast" or "slow") that's another 15 chances to proc Conviction.

I also disagree with your "20%" number - I'm in basically full 277 gear and have 12% crit, and the "3% crit on target" talents seem to be gone.

At 12% crit, there's a 1.5% chance the stack will fall off.
At 15% crit, there's a 0.5% chance the stack will fall off.

Conviction is going to be very good if either our in-raid crit chance is 15%+, or you also take the crit-chance modifying talents.


Well considering rule of law and sacred duty (10% crit chance to HoR and CS and when HoR crits next judgement is guaranteed crit) It its not so bad. I just recently have started HM in ICC25 but raid buffed I'm typically around 20-23% crit rating. Off course well lose crit% on talents and another 1.5% from kings scaling. Still it wouldn't be unexpected to get around a 15% crit chance base. Going further we then have 25% chance to crit on CS and HoR. HoR getting a crit's means that judgement gets 100% crit on next use. This means we could average out judgement out to 36% crit chance over time. Then if we have reckoning with at least 2 talents in it we gain 1 extra white dmg per hit in 30 seconds.

so 21 white damage swings and 18 non white dmg swings.
white damage chance to no crit= .85^21= 3.3% chance no not crit
abilities is trickier though but well attempt to average them out.
3 judgements at 36% chance +6 CS at 25% and 3 HoR at 25%+6 at 15%=23.5% average crit rate

76.5% non crit rate
.765^18= 00.8% chance to not crit

Averaging out our white+non white crit rate we get (.15*(21/39))+(.23.5*(18/39))= 18.9%

.81^39=2.8*10^-4 or 0.00028 chance to not get a crit. Of course modeling in if HS can crit would be trickier but as it is with just 15% crit chance your almost guaranteed to have it up over 99% the time.

Edit im fairly certain even at 10% crit rate we would get .003% or still almost guaranteed uptime.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Macawber » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:56 pm

Why would they remove ShoR from the single target rotation but leave in consecration and add holy wrath? It makes no sense. They should make ShoR hit more than HotR and leave them both in the single target rotation. If you're fighting a boss, ShoR is the higher priority. If you're fighting 2-3 enemies HotR takes precedence. More enemies than that, you can switch to an AoE rotation (where consecration and holy wrath actually belong). It might not be the most interesting choice ever, but if they wanted to they could leave them both in and still give the player a decision about which to use when.
Last edited by Macawber on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Sharlos » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:08 pm

Can't they make our ShoR generate HP and use it instead of Crusader Strike?
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:13 pm

If I was trying to come up with a design that makes ShoR different enough and interesting enough to keep, I might suggest making it Prot's 2nd Holy Power move. Increase Holy Shield duration a little, give ShoR a short (or zero) cooldown and have it scale with Holy Power. It can be a hard hitter without being immediate burst, it's high priority without being spammable, and it gives us something to do with our Holy Power other than just keep Holy Shield up.

They'd still need another less predictable HP generator to prevent rigid rotations, though. I still think Reckoning should have chance on block to gain Holy Power on it.
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Re: 31 Point Talent Calc Updated 7/20/2010

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:49 pm

Fenris wrote:
We have temporarily disabled Shield of Righteousness.

We're working on the basic Prot rotations right now, and with Shield of Righteousness in addition to Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Consecrate, Avenger's Shield and Holy Wrath, there was just a lot going on. Shield seemed like the least interesting of those abilities -- really Shield and Hammer just seem to be single-target and multitarget versions of the same ability, especially without block scaling. Shield also felt like a duplicate of Shield Slam, which doesn't help in trying to differentiate the two Prot trees. Frankly, we'd rather make Avenger's Shield and Hammer of the Righteous cooler than they are today.

It's too early to call this a permanent change. We still have a lot to consider, such as the damage of Hammer vs. Shield, how different we want the AE vs. single-target Prot attacks to be, and how much Holy Power considerations occupy a Prot paladin.

If we keep Shield of Righteousness, we need to figure out its role relative to Hammer. We don't want it to be just swap one button for another for AE fights, and we don't want you to have to use both on cooldown since we are giving Prot paladins more things to manage in Cataclysm.

:?


I was hoping they would make ShOR more interesting. Removing it altogether is just horrible. Finally being able to whack things with my shield was one of my favourite additions to Wotlk.

Ret is looking a lot more attractive right now.
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