Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:12 pm

Modal wrote:Possible solutions:
1. Give HotR a CD again, so that CS becomes our "anemic filler spell" in addition to being a HP generator.
2. Make GC boost the HP generation of CS instead of/in addition to its damage.
3. Buff the proc rate on GC, although if it remains tied to ShoR it would have to be 100%.
4. Give us a different HP generator (perhaps HotR, perhaps blocks, whatever) and a different reason to hit CS.
5. Get rid of GC and make CS a HP generator that we hit only grudgingly.

Something's obviously got to change here, though, you're right about that.

The first one is what I expected to happen based on the last talent tree set (with the CS cooldown reduction talent). Note that HotR (or HoR now I guess) didn't have a cooldown in either version, which I expect is just a bug or a temporary result of having redesigned the spell.

This time around, the CS talent is gone. Maybe they changed their mind and figured that it was easier to let CS remain and have HoR be our filler, as you surmised. That would just feel sort of cheap though, honestly. I'd rather have Hammer be our signature move, as it's in our tree. CS makes sense as filler, since it's available to everyone.

If they redesigned GC slightly to modify Hammer or ShoR (ShoR would probably make the most sense if it's trainable at a reasonable level, since you can get to GC before you get Hammer), and added the CS cooldown reduction back into one of the blander talents, that would give us exactly such a setup.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:16 pm

Modal wrote:A 20% proc rate on ShoR, assuming ShoR used on CD, would still not quite get you to 9 HP/min. on average. But that might be fine; it would on average give us enough to keep Inquisition up, and then we'd have to decide when to throw in extra CS for Holy Shield (edit: or just trade threat for mitigation and use HP for HS instead of Inquisition).


I think this is exactly what they want to do. It follows the design goal of giving us interesting choices. Being able to dump HP into both HS and Inquisition isn't a choice, but having to decide whether we need the extra survivability of HS or the extra DPS of Inquisition fits the bill. (I guess HS is technically a threat source too, but it would be sort of silly if it were a match for Inquisition).

Actually, this might explain why they took the CS cooldown-reduction talent out - it would give us a gcd-limited HP generator, which might be a bad thing. It's likely harder to balance when your paladin tank normally generates X HPPS, but can switch their rotation up to generate 3X HPPS.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:17 pm

The reason I don't see #1 as optimal, although I agree it's somewhat likelier than many of the other options, is that it really does just make CS into filler. Whereas, if HotR remains CD-less, that means we have a spammable cool, spec-defining spell that we will be happy to use when we don't have a higher-priority spell available. Then if we buff GC to make it take care of most of our HP generating needs, then we also actually want to push CS sometimes, instead of pushing it just because we have to or have nothing better to do.

I get thinking "hey our 31-pt talent is at the bottom of our priority list, that's not cool," but I think in practice it will feel like, "sweet, I never have to use any uncool spells and/or stand around twiddling my thumbs."
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Suzytincan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:22 pm

Modal wrote:The reason I don't see #1 as optimal, although I agree it's somewhat likelier than many of the other options, is that it really does just make CS into filler. Whereas, if HotR remains CD-less, that means we have a spammable cool, spec-defining spell that we will be happy to use when we don't have a higher-priority spell available. Then if we buff GC to make it take care of most of our HP generating needs, then we also actually want to push CS sometimes, instead of pushing it just because we have to or have nothing better to do.

I get thinking "hey our 31-pt talent is at the bottom of our priority list, that's not cool," but I think in practice it will feel like, "sweet, I never have to use any uncool spells and/or stand around twiddling my thumbs."


"And I get to make that PANG! noise as much as I want!" (still love that sound heh)
Suzytincan - 70 BE Paladin, Blackhand, US
0/55/6
Suzytincan
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:55 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:22 pm

They would almost have to remove the cleave portion of it for that to stick though. If it was our filler (and thus cast relatively often), then it would exacerbate the "too much free AoE damage" problem they've said they want to fix.

That said, it's not like we don't already have a precedent for having a high-tier filler spell. Devastate, while not the last talent in the tree, is a "cool filler spell" that I like to push on my warrior. If they tacked on some sort of utility modification to HotR as compensation for the loss of cleave, I could see it filling exactly the role you describe.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:28 pm

I'm not sure a three-target spell is too much free AoE without SoC to go with it--it's been SoC that's the real culprit in WotLK. And we'd still have an AoE rotation that was quite a bit different, with Consecrate and Holy Wrath, and we'd still probably have to tab-target to do decent threat on more than 3 mobs (remember HS's place in our AoE threat rotation is also going to be different). In fact, thinking about the AoE threat tools we have at the moment, we might need spammable HotR to keep up by stacking SoV on multiple mobs (like a warrior's bleeds or DK's diseases).
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:37 pm

theckhd wrote:
steadypal wrote:shockwave

Which, last I checked, was cast on cooldown as a prot warrior even against single targets. In other words, not their lowest priority.


Isn't that mostly due to the 2P bonus and not the power of the attack?
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:47 pm

Flex wrote:Isn't that mostly due to the 2P bonus and not the power of the attack?

I honestly have no idea. I read it somewhere on tankspot when I was leveling my warrior, so I'm not sure whether that information is outdated or dependent on set bonuses.

Either way though, it hardly counts as a filler attack, even if it is a niche move. It's excellent AoE threat, an AoE stun, and a great snap aggro tool even on single targets. HotR could be decent AoE threat, but if it's weak enough to be a filler it's not going to be the snap aggro tool we'd go for. Holy Wrath would fit that bill instead.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby steadypal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:08 pm

there HAS to be something missing when it comes to holy power for prot imo, because inquisition is also a ret talent, so they have THAT,,, holy power divine storm dump, AND templars verdict, thats 3 things they can spend HP on, we have holy shield and a ret available talent?


mmochampion also shows the beta talents, showing lvl 83 spells for holy and ret, and nothing for prot atm?


and is blinding shield really gone? it seemed so cool? what unique ability can they give to make up for that?
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:17 pm

Inquisition is not a talent, it's baseline.
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Suzytincan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:19 pm

steadypal wrote:there HAS to be something missing when it comes to holy power for prot imo, because inquisition is also a ret talent, so they have THAT,,, holy power divine storm dump, AND templars verdict, thats 3 things they can spend HP on, we have holy shield and a ret available talent?


mmochampion also shows the beta talents, showing lvl 83 spells for holy and ret, and nothing for prot atm?


and is blinding shield really gone? it seemed so cool? what unique ability can they give to make up for that?


I think there is also a heal we could use. Word of Glory or something like that. I can't seem to find it right now, but that'd obviously wouldn't be prot-oriented.

I see what you're saying, but with the current state of things we don't seem to really want another HP dump... because we don't really want to use our HP generating move more than is necessary. Modal's fix to Grand Crusader would make it more fun to have another HP dump, though. Got lots of time on HS/Inq? Just got a Modal-GC proc? Hit HOLYWTFBBQ of Protness!
Suzytincan - 70 BE Paladin, Blackhand, US
0/55/6
Suzytincan
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:55 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby steadypal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:24 pm

give prot the rets DS ability then as a HP dump..


cause atm, we get 3 HP, hit inquis,,, get 3 hp, use holy shield rinse and repeat, depending on how fast it stacks...


Divine Storm - An instant weapon attack that causes 20% of weapon damage to up to all enemies within 8 yards. The Divine Storm heals up to 3 party or raid members totaling 25% of the damage caused. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:
1 Holy Power: 22% Weapon Damage
2 Holy Power: 50% Weapon Damage
3 Holy Power: 90% Weapon Damage / 20% of base mana, Instant cast



have it effect hotr or shield slam maybe.. or give us templars verdict and 225% dmg to shield slam :P












looking again, they should really put rebuke as prot talent, just give ret a imp HOJ, or crap put rebuke in t1 prot, and put imp hoj deep ret... idk i just wtb a damm interupt already heheh
Last edited by steadypal on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:27 pm

It really doesn't look like we need a HP "dump." For that, we'd need to generate more than 9 HP/min.
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby steadypal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:30 pm

Modal wrote:It really doesn't look like we need a HP "dump." For that, we'd need to generate more than 9 HP/min.




CS is 4 second CD, so on cd, 15 hp/min,,, and chance to make it instant for more hp right? idk, making a 4sec CD chance to be instant seems really stupid to me when u think of shield slam/hotr to proc it, and global cooldowns all involved.
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:33 pm

We won't use CS on CD.
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest