Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Chicken » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:38 pm

glorfindell wrote:
MetalM wrote:I had similar thoughts when I saw that. If they're balancing us around having the buff up, it means we're going to be a threat disadvantage starting a fight. If we aren't, it means we'll be threat monsters and the old QQ machine will crank into motion. That said, beta's a long way from done, so I'm optimistic they'll sort it all out.


Does Holy Shock only stack HPower for Holy Pallies? Or is it everyone? If that was the case, we could at least Holy Shock ourselves a few times prepull to start with full HPower.
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They changed Holy Shock back to being Holy Paladin only, it's the ability they get for choosing to be a Holy Paladin.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:19 pm

Modal wrote:I think we don't need the final numbers to infer what Blizzard has in mind. Here, for example, is a reason to think that HotR will be at the bottom of our priority:

If HotR is not at the bottom of our priority, then there is some spell that is below it.
If there is a spell that is below HotR in our priority, and HotR has no cooldown, then that spell will never be cast.
So, unless they give HotR a cooldown again, it is necessarily at the bottom of our priority queue.
Therefore, by taking away HotR's cooldown, blizzard is signalling an intention to make it the lowest-priority threat spell among the spells they want us to be using in our rotation. It doesn't matter what the numbers are; if they come out so that it's not the lowest priority, then they will need to tweak those numbers.

It's not difficult logic. The only place where I really made a significant assumption about how hard things would hit is assuming that ShoR would hit harder than Judgement.


There's nothing wrong with your logic. But I think the assumptions you're basing it on are going to turn out to be incorrect. In particular, the part I bolded - I don't expect HoR (why the hell did they change the name, btw?) to remain cooldownless. For exactly the same reason I gave earlier - it makes little sense for the 31-point talent of a tree to be an anemic filler spell that goes at the bottom of our rotation.

Could they do it? Sure. Will they do it? I doubt it. Most other classes get a signature, high-priority move in that slot.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby steadypal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:35 pm

theckhd wrote:
Modal wrote:I think we don't need the final numbers to infer what Blizzard has in mind. Here, for example, is a reason to think that HotR will be at the bottom of our priority:

If HotR is not at the bottom of our priority, then there is some spell that is below it.
If there is a spell that is below HotR in our priority, and HotR has no cooldown, then that spell will never be cast.
So, unless they give HotR a cooldown again, it is necessarily at the bottom of our priority queue.
Therefore, by taking away HotR's cooldown, blizzard is signalling an intention to make it the lowest-priority threat spell among the spells they want us to be using in our rotation. It doesn't matter what the numbers are; if they come out so that it's not the lowest priority, then they will need to tweak those numbers.

It's not difficult logic. The only place where I really made a significant assumption about how hard things would hit is assuming that ShoR would hit harder than Judgement.


There's nothing wrong with your logic. But I think the assumptions you're basing it on are going to turn out to be incorrect. In particular, the part I bolded - I don't expect HoR (why the hell did they change the name, btw?) to remain cooldownless. For exactly the same reason I gave earlier - it makes little sense for the 31-point talent of a tree to be an anemic filler spell that goes at the bottom of our rotation.

Could they do it? Sure. Will they do it? I doubt it. Most other classes get a signature, high-priority move in that slot.




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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:38 pm

It doesn't have to be an "anemic filler spell," though. Even if we use 3 GCDs/min. for Inq. & HS, 10 for ShoR, 6 for Judgement, and 9 for CS, that leaves 12 for HotR. It would actually be our most used strike (assuming we don't need to sub in non-threat spells) and would of course be an even bigger part of our multi-target rotation. It's still a cool spell, and still likely better for threat and damage than unbuffed CS. CS is actually the anemic filler spell which we only use when we get a proc to buff it or because it's a prerequisite for other spells.

In other words, the fact that HotR is at the bottom of the priority queue doesn't mean it has to feel like a weak spell. I don't think it will.

However, I also think it's likely they'll fix the problem of deciding when to trade HotR for HP-building unbuffed CS strikes by giving HotR a CD again. So it will sit just above unbuffed CS in priority, or possibly also above Judgement.

But there are other ways they could go, like making HotR generate holy power, or making Grand Crusader procs increase the amount of holy power that CS generates.

Edit: In fact, part of what I like about the prot rotation I outline is that there aren't any anemic filler spells (I feel that way about Cons. in our current rotation--I use it because the math tells me to, but it's clunky and dumb as part of a single-target rotation).
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Jefferson » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:17 pm

One thing that I'm curious about is fitting self-healing stuff into our rotation. It looks like prot wars are getting a lot of self-healing (victory rush as execute, field dressing, and blood craze), and although they pulled holy shock away from us, we've still got jazz hands or whatever they're calling it, and i'm assuming Sacred Shield (my holy paly keeps his on my off-tank, generally). Is there anything else we get, or are we going to end up with less self-healing than wars?
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Chunes » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:19 pm

Jefferson wrote:we've still got jazz hands or whatever they're calling it...


I lol'ed pretty good at this...
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:21 pm

Jefferson wrote:One thing that I'm curious about is fitting self-healing stuff into our rotation. It looks like prot wars are getting a lot of self-healing (victory rush as execute, field dressing, and blood craze), and although they pulled holy shock away from us, we've still got jazz hands or whatever they're calling it, and i'm assuming Sacred Shield (my holy paly keeps his on my off-tank, generally). Is there anything else we get, or are we going to end up with less self-healing than wars?


Including raid wide stuff:

Self healing Seal and Judgement, potential for more passive applied healing, Word of Glory instant heal if it is roped off to holy only.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Suzytincan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:57 pm

The list of assumptions I feel are safe so far (YMMV):
- We will be expected to keep Inquisition up roughly every 30 sec, which means at times we will need to be able to generate roughly 3 HP in 15 seconds. This is because we need to fit stacking HP and hitting HS in between hitting Inq. Without Grand Crusader, there is just enough time to do this with CS's cooldown.
- At most, we will need to keep HS up every minute. That's 3 more HP per minute.
- At the very least, they are going to want us to hit ShotR over HotR in single target fights. Otherwise, in a world with no CD on HotR (as it stands now) we might as well take it off our bar. They could do it by either making it do more innate threat than HotR, or via buffing another ability (see Shield of the Templar). If its the former, then its a no-brainer and we will hit it over HotR. If its the latter, then we can at least infer that they want ShotR+CritJudge > HotR+NoncritJudge.
- They will want us casting judgement. There is the attack speed debuff, but others could potentially bring that. So our mana regen becomes the reason to cast it. How close to the CD we need to cast it will depend on ability costs and mana returned.

I then wanted to write out a starting rotation that just meets these goals. Unfortunately, I had to make some additional assumptions. I assumed that you got no Grand Crusader procs, etc. for instance... it started coming together like this:

[cut out sample rotation... I can put it back if folks want me to]


Its neither perfect nor complete, but it seems to highlight one particular thing for me... Grand Crusader is looking less than stellar. At the very minimum, CS in its Grand-Crusader-Buffed state needs to do more threat than a single ShoR or HotR. Since we can already get enough CS's in without the proc, we need a reason to want to hit it after we already generated our 3 HP. If they do not make this true, then Grand Crusader is a 2 point investment to sometimes double the damage of an ability we hit 12 times in the first minute, and only 9 times in every minute after.

Even if the GC-buffed CS *does* do more threat than HotR/ShoR, could we do better by spending those two points elsewhere? I'm starting to feel that unless they make CS do amazing threat, Grand Crusader might be theory-crafted out of our builds. Too early to say without numbers, but its not a sure deal at this point.

Edited: Fixed a mistake (made an absolute statement where there shouldn't be one)... I also removed the long rotation I had listed. It didn't really add anything and took up a ton of space.

Edit 2: A couple more notes against Grand Crusader... If CS remains physical, 1) it won't be affected by Inquisition, 2) It won't be affected by Righteous Fury. Considering points 1 and 2, you now have 2 choices: a) Make it do more than 100% weapon damage (now you're affecting ret), or b) Have ShoR/HotR do a minimal amount of damage since that damage->threat will be buffed by Inq and RF... its not looking good for Grand Crusader :(
Last edited by Suzytincan on Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Jefferson » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:21 pm

Is there any compelling reason for CS to have such a short cooldown? If I recall, was it not once on a considerably longer cooldown? I love the way this is shaping up, but they really ought consider getting rid of that 30s inquisition and bringing the cooldown on CS back up a ways (or possibly allowing grand crusader to fire off a free CS the way that blood DKs fire off a free death coil?). Getting rid of the "maintenance-y" holy shield (which I loved!) only to replace it with a maintenance-y Inquisition and a slightly less maintenance-y holy shield doesn't seem to be a net gain for the rotation...
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Suzytincan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:23 pm

Jefferson wrote:Is there any compelling reason for CS to have such a short cooldown? If I recall, was it not once on a considerably longer cooldown? I love the way this is shaping up, but they really ought consider getting rid of that 30s inquisition and bringing the cooldown on CS back up a ways (or possibly allowing grand crusader to fire off a free CS the way that blood DKs fire off a free death coil?). Getting rid of the "maintenance-y" holy shield (which I loved!) only to replace it with a maintenance-y Inquisition and a slightly less maintenance-y holy shield doesn't seem to be a net gain for the rotation...


Completely changing my response. I now understand what you're saying.

Yeah, if they got rid of Inquisition, then from prot's standpoint we could have a longer CD on CS. We still would need a reason to want to hit it over HotR and ShoR, though. So it'd have to hit pretty dang hard... and that affects ret. Probably doable, but would be a balancing act. As it stands now, though, it seems like the current balancing act may not be working quite right either.
Last edited by Suzytincan on Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:45 pm

Suzytincan wrote:Its neither perfect nor complete, but it seems to highlight one particular thing for me... Grand Crusader is looking less than stellar. At the very minimum, CS in its Grand-Crusader-Buffed state needs to do more threat than a single ShoR or HotR.


No matter what, as you've pointed out, unless they GC buffs it into super-mega-awesomeness, the only reason we will ever hit CS as tanks is to generate HP, unless HotR gets a CD again and we use it as an "anemic filler spell." It won't be that attractive as a threat move on its own, because it does physical rather than holy damage.

So GC makes our HP generator a more interesting button, and that seems to be it's goal. But it's still primarily a HP generator. If you assume that you won't wait for GC procs to hit CS, and will just stack to 3 HP as soon as you blow it on Inq./HS, then yeah, GC is pretty lackluster. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take GC, it means that you should wait for GC procs to hit CS.

This is itself a problem, as I've mentioned above, because you won't generate enough HP with GC procs alone, so you will end up having to hit unbuffed CS sometimes. And then you will need to do on-the-fly theorycraft during boss fights to determine the optimal point at which to stop fishing for GC procs and start swapping CS for HotR. That is no fun, and too much complexity for the HP system to have.

Possible solutions:
1. Give HotR a CD again, so that CS becomes our "anemic filler spell" in addition to being a HP generator.
2. Make GC boost the HP generation of CS instead of/in addition to its damage.
3. Buff the proc rate on GC, although if it remains tied to ShoR it would have to be 100%.
4. Give us a different HP generator (perhaps HotR, perhaps blocks, whatever) and a different reason to hit CS.
5. Get rid of GC and make CS a HP generator that we hit only grudgingly.

Something's obviously got to change here, though, you're right about that.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:50 pm

steadypal wrote:shockwave

Which, last I checked, was cast on cooldown as a prot warrior even against single targets. In other words, not their lowest priority.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:56 pm

theckhd wrote:Which, last I checked, was cast on cooldown as a prot warrior even against single targets. In other words, not their lowest priority.


I said this already, but am going to rephrase in what I hope is a clearer way.

I think you're thinking in terms of a WotLK model where prot and ret both had a few spells that were spec-defining and hit hard, and then some GCDs to fill with extra stuff (Consecrate, Exorcism). It seems to me like one goal, actually, in getting rid of the CD on HotR and several of the changes for ret is precisely to squeeze some spells out of the rotation that shouldn't be there in the first place. So the fact that a 31-point strike is at the bottom of the list (single target only) doesn't mean it's going to be a weak spell, it means that their design is working--we won't be casting any filler spells at all.

Edit: if you like, you can think of the list as having more entries, including Consecrate, AS, Holy Wrath, whatever, but just the stuff lower than HotR never gets used in practice in a maximum-threat single-target rotation.
Last edited by Modal on Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Suzytincan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:59 pm

Modal wrote:Possible solutions:
1. Give HotR a CD again, so that CS becomes our "anemic filler spell" in addition to being a HP generator.
2. Make GC boost the HP generation of CS instead of/in addition to its damage.
3. Buff the proc rate on GC, although if it remains tied to ShoR it would have to be 100%.
4. Give us a different HP generator (perhaps HotR, perhaps blocks, whatever) and a different reason to hit CS.
5. Get rid of GC and make CS a HP generator that we hit only grudgingly.


Of what you list, I'm currently liking your option 2. Now GC becomes a threat talent, albeit one that is hard to model. It can sometimes save you a GCD that you can spend on HotR or something similar. It would also fit into their concept of getting rid of static rotations.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:03 pm

I agree; the first solution I thought of was to make HotR our HP generator and give us a different reason to hit CS, but someone suggested the other option on the official tank forums, and now I like it. Heck, they could even choose not to buff CS's damage when GC procs and just make it generate 3 HP instead of 1. Then we'd want to hit it 3 times/min. or so.

A 20% proc rate on ShoR, assuming ShoR used on CD, would still not quite get you to 9 HP/min. on average. But that might be fine; it would on average give us enough to keep Inquisition up, and then we'd have to decide when to throw in extra CS for Holy Shield (edit: or just trade threat for mitigation and use HP for HS instead of Inquisition).
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