Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Jefferson » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:16 pm

Is anyone else miffed about losing Holy Shield as part of our rotation? I *think* I understand why they're doing it, but it's really a part of our rotation that helps me feel more tanky on my pally than on any of my other 3 tanks (DKs are particularly bad about feeling like a DPS class that just throws on defensive stance and is a tank). I'm genuinely nervous that between the loss of HS and the potential loss of the nice, tight 969 rotation tanking on a Paladin isn't going to feel like, well, tanking on a Paladin so much as tanking on a War with a blue rage bar. I know it's early to worry about those things, and maybe I'm just nutters to care about those things, but I suppose now's the time to let bliz know if we do want to keep those sorts of things for cata...
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Lionnis » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:43 am

I'm really liking the way the single target tanking rotation is looking so far, giving us back instant exorcism. Just another instant for single target threat or long range pulls, sort of like a FF from a druid.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:14 am

I think we can actually say something about what Prot's single-target rotation is going to look like in Cataclysm now.

The main thing to notice is that keeping Inquisition up for threat is going to be high priority. We will also want to max our Holy Shield duration. We won't actually be using Holy Power for strikes at all. So since Inquisition lasts 30s with 3 stacks of HP, and HS has a 1 min. CD, we are likely to need 9 HP per minute. So 12 of our GCDs per minute will be devoted to keeping up these long-duration buffs. Note that we generally have ~40 GCDs per minute. I don't see us prioritizing CS at all, just hitting it when Grand Crusader procs, since we don't need to quickly build HP, but we do need a steady flow of about 1 HP per 4 GCDs.

ShoR is likely to be our biggest strike, and retains its 6s CD, so we will also want to hit it on CD. That means ~10 GCDs per minute for ShoR.

I'm guessing Judgement will hit harder than HoR (edit: especially with ShoR proccing guaranteed Judgement crits) and so we'll want to use Judgement on CD too. I actually doubt speccing into CD reduction for Judgement as Prot is going to be normal in Cata, so it will have a 10s CD, for ~6 GCDs per minute, ignoring conflicts with ShoR.

That eats up ~28 GCDs per minute, leaving only 12 for HotR and other less rotation-y spells. I suspect actually the main reason they've removed the CD on HotR is because we'll have enough to prioritize over it that we won't spam it in single-target rotation, and we will (yay!) have it always available for picking up new adds and for AoE situation spam.

TL;DR: Prot "rotation" priority in Cataclysm is likely going to look like this:

1. Keep Inquisition up.
2. Holy Shield with 3 HP.
3. CS when Grand Crusader procs.
4. ShoR
5. Judgement
6. HotR
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flitter » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:31 am

Modal wrote:I actually doubt speccing into CD reduction for Judgement as Prot is going to be normal in Cata, so it will have a 10s CD, for ~6 GCDs per minute, ignoring conflicts with ShoR.

Actually, without any CD reduction, our 10 sec judgement spell will consume at least 8 GCDs over a one minute time span. That is if you really want to hit judgement six times a minute of course. Otherwise you would simply delay it and be left with a 10,5 sec CD. Since we regenerate mana of our judgement spell like ret does, this decision could be interesting.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Chicken » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:35 am

Flitter wrote:
Modal wrote:I actually doubt speccing into CD reduction for Judgement as Prot is going to be normal in Cata, so it will have a 10s CD, for ~6 GCDs per minute, ignoring conflicts with ShoR.

Actually, without any CD reduction, our 10 sec judgement spell will consume at least 8 GCDs over a one minute time span. That is if you really want to hit judgement six times a minute of course. Otherwise you would simply delay it and be left with a 10,5 sec CD. Since we regenerate mana of our judgement spell like ret does, this decision could be interesting.
I'd expect that if it was worth hitting that often for mana regen but otherwise not worth it you'd be best off simply putting a single point in Improved Judgement. That gives it a 9 second cooldown and means it's cleanly usable every 6 GCDs.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:39 am

Modal wrote:I think we can actually say something about what Prot's single-target rotation is going to look like in Cataclysm now.

I think that we don't have anywhere near enough information for that. For example, you've made a lot of assumptions about how hard things will hit, but we don't have any data to validate those assumptions. In particular, I highly doubt that HotR, being our 31-point talent, will be at the bottom of our rotation queue.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Petrus » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:43 am

Currently, after a few minutes testing on beta:

HoR (No longer HotR) hits for less than CS, but still has no CD.
CS hits for more than HoR but can hit for significantly more after ShoR/HoR hits due to Grand Crusader, so we generally want to preface it with one of those two when possible - think ShoR-CS-HoR-CS?
Want to Judge as much as possible, I think, once the stack of Vengeance is up and depending on how much mana we have/need and how many points are in Imp Judgements.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:47 am

Petrus wrote:Currently, after a few minutes testing on beta:

HoR (No longer HotR) hits for less than CS, but still has no CD.
CS hits for more than HoR but can hit for significantly more after ShoR/HoR hits due to Grand Crusader, so we generally want to preface it with one of those two when possible - think ShoR-CS-HoR-CS?
Want to Judge as much as possible, I think, once the stack of Vengeance is up and depending on how much mana we have/need and how many points are in Imp Judgements.


CS and HoR damage done isn't a proper comparison, need to look at threat done.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:05 am

theckhd wrote:
Modal wrote:I think we can actually say something about what Prot's single-target rotation is going to look like in Cataclysm now.

I think that we don't have anywhere near enough information for that. For example, you've made a lot of assumptions about how hard things will hit, but we don't have any data to validate those assumptions. In particular, I highly doubt that HotR, being our 31-point talent, will be at the bottom of our rotation queue.


I think we don't need the final numbers to infer what Blizzard has in mind. Here, for example, is a reason to think that HotR will be at the bottom of our priority:

If HotR is not at the bottom of our priority, then there is some spell that is below it.
If there is a spell that is below HotR in our priority, and HotR has no cooldown, then that spell will never be cast.
So, unless they give HotR a cooldown again, it is necessarily at the bottom of our priority queue.
Therefore, by taking away HotR's cooldown, blizzard is signalling an intention to make it the lowest-priority threat spell among the spells they want us to be using in our rotation. It doesn't matter what the numbers are; if they come out so that it's not the lowest priority, then they will need to tweak those numbers.

It's not difficult logic. The only place where I really made a significant assumption about how hard things would hit is assuming that ShoR would hit harder than Judgement. Here again, the fact that we have a talent that makes ShoR crits buff Judgement suggests that they want us to hit ShoR first.

It seems to me that the only real question is whether we will prioritize Judgement over CS w/ Grand Crusader proc. ShoR vs. CS w/ GC isn't really relevant, since it's ShoR that procs GC. Probably this decision point won't matter a lot.

The trickiest part is that we won't be able to just prioritize in terms of most threat generated, since our main motivation for hitting CS will be holy power generation. You'll want to use all your GC procs, but that won't be enough to generate all the holy power you'll need. The main way they could simplify prot's rotation would be to make HotR generate holy power (which wouldn't be OP since we really only have Inquisition and HS to use with HP), and give us another reason to hit CS once in a while.

Edit: I guess I was imagining earlier that GC would proc enough to generate holy power with it. With a 20% chance, and only 10 ShoRs per minute, that is actually extremely unlikely. So I guess since ShoR procs GC and maximizing Judgement casts will probably matter, I'm thinking now it will look more like this:

1. Make sure Inquisition is up
2. Holy Shield if holy power = 3
3. Shield of Righteousness
4. Judgement
5. CS if you have a Grand Crusader proc or if duration of Inquisition or cooldown of Holy Shield is almost up and holy power < 3
6. Hammer of the Righteous
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:35 am

Honestly I'd like to see them make HotR generate holy power, and give us a proc-watch for CS that makes it worth pushing just for damage/threat. That would dramatically simplify our rotation--as it is, we'd want to hit CS only when GC procs if that were possible while maintaining a holy power rate of 9/min.

Since that won't be possible, there is going to be lots of tricky on-the-fly reasoning about when to start prioritizing CS over HotR. You won't want to do so right away at 0 HP until you have 3 again, since ideally you hit CS only on GC procs, and you'd like to wait for those. But as you get close to finishing the CD on HS or the duration on Inq., you'll need to build up to 3 HP. So you'll need to figure out when to start prioritizing CS over HotR based on how many CS CDs you'll need to reach 3 HP in time, taking into account possible CD conflicts with ShoR and Judgement. Ick.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Petrus » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:41 am

Why are we making assumptions about Inquisition? I didn't pay much attention to it but know what it does now, but do we get it? I thought it was a ret-only ability.

Either way, it seems like Savage Roar, and I'm not a big fan of that. Oh boy, keep your buff up or suddenly your damage sucks. I'd rather have to spend holy power on something like holy shield or HoR or something to buff those abilities (like HS already does) as opposed to being forced to keep some buff up for some arbitrary amount of time.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:52 am

It's a baseline spell in the retribution tab, not a ret-only ability.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby MetalM » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:16 pm

Petrus wrote:Why are we making assumptions about Inquisition? I didn't pay much attention to it but know what it does now, but do we get it? I thought it was a ret-only ability.

Either way, it seems like Savage Roar, and I'm not a big fan of that. Oh boy, keep your buff up or suddenly your damage sucks. I'd rather have to spend holy power on something like holy shield or HoR or something to buff those abilities (like HS already does) as opposed to being forced to keep some buff up for some arbitrary amount of time.


I had similar thoughts when I saw that. If they're balancing us around having the buff up, it means we're going to be a threat disadvantage starting a fight. If we aren't, it means we'll be threat monsters and the old QQ machine will crank into motion. That said, beta's a long way from done, so I'm optimistic they'll sort it all out.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Petrus » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:24 pm

Ahh, I see it now. I still don't know if I'm a fan. I'm not quite level 82 yet so it's still a ways off.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby glorfindell » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:28 pm

MetalM wrote:
Petrus wrote:I had similar thoughts when I saw that. If they're balancing us around having the buff up, it means we're going to be a threat disadvantage starting a fight. If we aren't, it means we'll be threat monsters and the old QQ machine will crank into motion. That said, beta's a long way from done, so I'm optimistic they'll sort it all out.


Does Holy Shock only stack HPower for Holy Pallies? Or is it everyone? If that was the case, we could at least Holy Shock ourselves a few times prepull to start with full HPower.

I can see it now:

"Pull!"
"Hold on, I have to heal myself for threat first."
"Wait what? K, now pull."
"2 more times, give me 12 seconds."
"Srsly?"
*12 seconds later*
"K, pulling!"
*Paladin pulls, loses threat, boss kills mage.*
"Whoops, forgot Righteous Fury."
"$^%#!! K go ret, Warrior tank pls."
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