Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Mneme » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:32 pm

knaughty wrote:I'd also say that GrC is crap for interrupting - relying on a proc to reset your interrupt is bad. Add in the fact that our interrupt is on GCD and part of our threat rotation and you're really clutching at straws to fins a use for it.


It's not about relying on AS to be up--it's about it being there as a clutch interrupt. If you follow your single-target rotation (which does NOT use GC procs) then there's a significant chance of it being available well before you would normally stick it into your rotation. There's even a chance that it will proc again AFTER you use it as a clutch interrupt, BEFORE you would need to stick it back into the rotation.

It's not clutching at straws to realize that the talent--while not awe-inspiring--can have its uses in a single-target tanking scenario.

As for "GrC is good for AE tanking" - what AE tanking are you planning to do on the real servers in 4.0.1 or 4.0.3? And why would you spec for it?

By the time we hit level 85, GrC might be the same or it might be awesome. For your spec tomorrow, you're mad to take it.


I don't understand the question. I'll be tanking the things I normally tank. Sometimes I tank one target and sometimes I tank multiple, which is where Grand Crusader will provide a consistent benefit. What other kind of response were you expecting?
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:49 pm

I don't think it's necessary to "defend" Grand Crusader. It was obviously designed as Knaughty described, and got caught in the fallout of the 3-second CS change. I have no doubt it will be changed in the future, but they didn't have time to implement it for 4.0.1.

Right now it falls squarely into the "optional" category as far as talents go, at least until it gets a re-work. And there's a lot of other enticing talents to choose from, making it a tough call.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:00 pm

theckhd wrote: And there's a lot of other enticing talents to choose from, making it a tough call.


There is?
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:09 pm

Mneme wrote:It's not clutching at straws to realize that the talent--while not awe-inspiring--can have its uses in a single-target tanking scenario.

If we had 50 talent points, I’d take GrC. We don’t, we have 36.

Talent specs are a zero-sum game. If you take GrC you’re skipping other talents that are better, so your spec is worse.

With current mechanics and tuning protection paladin specs are extremely cookie-cutter, especially at level 80.
Mneme wrote:I don't understand the question. I'll be tanking the things I normally tank. Sometimes I tank one target and sometimes I tank multiple, which is where Grand Crusader will provide a consistent benefit. What other kind of response were you expecting?

To answer underlined question: A specific encounter in-game that you need GrC for.

I’m simply not aware of an in-game level 80 encounter where it is worth speccing for AE tanking. I simply can’t think of one, and I’ve tanked everything in-game. Thus my question: Which specific encounter do you need GrC for? I haven’t tanked anything with the 4.0.1 talent set, as I don’t have Beta access and the PTR has been laggy as hell the few times I’ve tried to use it so this is a thought experiment on my part rather than experience talking. I can’t think of a challenging AE tanking encounter since Anub-heroic-25 with the two-tank strategy, as progression. Even that is more about gearing for block cap and accurate positioning than threat, but GrC would be “nice to have” for that encounter. As OT, I’d have tied speccing it for a progression kill of that encounter.

The fact there is some imaginary circumstance where the talent isn’t useless is not a reason to take it.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:10 pm

Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote: And there's a lot of other enticing talents to choose from, making it a tough call.


There is?

Imp HoJ and the WoG improvement talents are substantially more useful for heroic Lich King and Halion.

Not much else is particularly relevant for speccing in 4.0.1
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Mneme » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:14 pm

knaughty wrote:The fact there is some imaginary circumstance where the talent isn’t useless is not a reason to take it.


The fact that the talent is fun is reason enough to take it. It just feels "right" firing off Avenger's Shield all the time, even if it is a DPS loss. It's true that this sort of balancing should have been done ages and ages ago instead of wasting all of the development time on making hills and ditches, but I'm happy enough to wait for another numbers pass to make Grand Crusader's numerical worth equal to that of its fun factor.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:18 pm

knaughty wrote:
Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote: And there's a lot of other enticing talents to choose from, making it a tough call.


There is?

Imp HoJ and the WoG improvement talents are substantially more useful for heroic Lich King and Halion.

Not much else is particularly relevant for speccing in 4.0.1


I see those as far from enticing.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:25 pm

Flex wrote:I see those as far from enticing.


Fair call, that's Theck's word, not mine. I'd use "more relevant (better) for current difficult content". I don't much like WoG. I didn't like Sacred Shield...

Mneme wrote:The fact that the talent is fun is reason enough to take it. It just feels "right" firing off Avenger's Shield all the time, even if it is a DPS loss.

Ah, now that's a good reason.

I'm pretty sure that every post I've made say "GrC sucks" includes disclaimers for "right now, and I expect they'll fix it".

As well as expecting, I'm also hoping. I would really like us to have a proc worth watching and using - something that breaks up the over-rigid 939 rotation. Level 81+ AE rotation is a good example... there is no (practical) rotation except in the semi-imaginary circumstance of AE tanking one pack for a couple of minutes.

If you're OK with deliberately taking a TPS loss to get more fun via frisbee casts, and the stuff you're tanking doesn't require ultimate-spec-of-perfect-OPness, more power to you. It's a game. Just remember you're trading TPS for fun (for you).

But my FAQ won't say "This spec is more fun" because fun is subjective. It will say "Skip GrC because it is objectively worse than the alternatives".
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby steadypal » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:35 pm

i think grand crusader is purely an AOE ability proc, its linked to hotr, it WOULD be used if your aoeing trash, u can skip a sotr for AS, u can even skip cs or hotr to get it to proc again when u start hotr'ing again... single target , MEH,,, aoe spec,,,
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Arianne » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:37 pm

I'll repeat again. I'm GLAD that GC is not useful in a ST rotation. Because I want to be able to save my pull and my interrupt.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Mneme » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:43 pm

knaughty wrote:But my FAQ won't say "This spec is more fun" because fun is subjective. It will say "Skip GrC because it is objectively worse than the alternatives".


Grand Crusader does still retain its value when you are tanking more than one mob. When you consider that the only alternatives are a shorter stun or a heal that is a much more significant threat loss than using Grand Crusader procs, it's harder to say that any one is better than the other because that's not the sort of thing that is so easily quantified.

Now, you can qualify your opinion that Imp HoJ is a better use of talent points for specific encounters by listing where it may be useful, but that's the sort of "clutching at straws" that I was accused of when I tried to validate Grand Crusader as a niche single-target ability. There's a dozen other ways you could handle either situation, sure, but that's why neither talent is strictly "better" than the other in a quantitative sense.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Darielle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:04 pm

Grand Crusader was clearly designed as a hard-hitter-cooldown-reset proc that's meant to be used almost ASAP on both single and multiple targets. They haven't gotten around to tuning numbers since the 3 sec CS change, but that's pretty damn obvious.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby d503 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:11 pm

Darielle wrote:Grand Crusader was clearly designed as a hard-hitter-cooldown-reset proc that's meant to be used almost ASAP on both single and multiple targets. They haven't gotten around to tuning numbers since the 3 sec CS change, but that's pretty damn obvious.


This.

I'm trying to get some attention on it on the Cata Beta forums.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&sid=2000
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Griffith » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:52 pm

Feanorion wrote:
Passionario wrote:
Feanorion wrote:No, he does not hate paladins, but he does seem to make balance decisions with population in mind. We are, in my opinion, being culled. Too many paladins, not enough bears/DK's.

You forgot the part about Authenticators that are linked to an account with a level 80 Paladin emitting deadly carcinogenic radiation every time you press the button. :roll:


Oh, you think this is tinfoil hattery? It was not me, but Zarko on the tank forums, who correlated several "balance decisions" to the shift in tank population representation. Ghostcrawler has said (and quite reasonably so) that if bears are overpowered, but tremendously underplayed, they can not really nerf them, because the bear numbers would plummet even further, or effectively disappear altogether. DK nerfs (the foolish and poorly-aimed nerfs and the eventual correct nerf) coincided with the swelling of DK representation in Ulduar. I called for Paladin EH nerfs and linked DK/Warrior EH buffs 6 months before they were implemented; they were implemented after paladin representation equaled or slightly surpassed Warrior representation. The statistical EH imbalance was no greater than it was 6 months earlier (although higher gear levels made the imbalance more apparent), but representation changed.


oddly enough, this also coincided with GC stating that if things were broken at higher gear levels as people on the forum were predicting, they would change things. They did. Population is important. If people don't play their class b/c they feel underpowered, blizzard loses money. Wow is a business, please understand that. They are going to make the decisions that best improve the business. Ulduar kinda sucked for us, even though I felt we were the best tank for Yogg, they OP'ed us, then brought us in line. GC doesn't hate or dislike any class, he loves WoW and the paychecks he receives from being a part of the team.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:00 pm

I found Zarko's numbers both interesting and surprising. I had no idea tankadins were so common now - I still had a TBC-era mental image of how common we are, and would have guessed "10%" if you'd asked me.

That said, trying to turn DKs into decent and playable tanks isn't a direct attack on paladins.

As for "bear under-representation" as tanks, I have a case of beer that says the significant majority of bear under-representation is due to the fact that it is so damn easy to switch between kitty & bear, so half the guilds he's sampling use a bear as their "switch-hitter".

3-tank fight? Feral is tanking.
2-tank fight? Feral is DPSing. Possibly in the same spec & gear....

Result? Bear is part of the tanking team, thinks of himself as a tank, but only gets about a third of the representation from Zarko's perspective.

That's pretty much what we did throughout ICC. But that feral though of himself as a tank, was one of our two LK-hard tanks, and guess what, he's my replacement as tanking officer.
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