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Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Amirya » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:15 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Amirya wrote:
Passionario wrote:There is nothing shameful in having to rely on others to achieve success.

And this perfectly states why I don't particularly mind not having an off GCD interrupt as a paladin. If I had one, why the hell would I need a raid? I'd go solo end bosses, 'cause I can tank with my spec, heal with WoG, interrupt their spells, and do decent damage.


All fine and dandy, until your luck ends up pairing you with dps that, by design, can't interrupt properly.

Then my healer better be damn good. /shrug

If there's a consistent issue, Blizzard will get around to fixing it. In the meantime, we'll deal as we always have.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:18 pm

I don't see it as a consistent issue. Just that the probability is there, as Callimar found out.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:18 pm

I wonder if this boss' Shock Blast is Grounded by the totem and if the Grounding Totem Glyph wouldn't be loltastic.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Feanorion » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:07 pm

Darielle wrote:
It was not me, but Zarko on the tank forums, who correlated several "balance decisions" to the shift in tank population representation.


Actually, his thread(s) was to see if representation over time changes due to perception or was affected by tank balance changes, which is a difference. I'm pretty sure he specifically didn't try to interpret any sort of correlation because of the various ways it could be flawed.


I'd like to point out that making Blood DKs overpowered is the wrong way to go about balancing tank populations.

I'd also like to point out that Blizzard abso-frigging-lutely balances based off representation.
Post #16 http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23329103342&postId=233272540925&sid=1#16


There has only been one survivability change for warriors this whole expansion: double chance to crit block. That's it.

Every single thing we've been told by GC that they balance around, they turn around and deny later.

There are more things that we're told that they don't balance around than they do.

They don't balance against each other.
They don't balance around representation
They don't balance based on a spreadsheet
They don't balance based just on encounters
They don't balance based on success rates.
Etc. etc. etc.

I'm not really interested in what GC has to say on how they balance tanks, because he contradicts himself a couple months later. Looking only at the changes that have been made, I would say that they use warriors as a baseline and balance content around warriors. In other words, Daelo tests encounters using a warrior.

They are reluctant to buff warriors because that makes their content easier. Other tanks, they watch how many tanks are completing content. If their numbers drop too low (as happened for Paladins in Ulduar, and DKs in ICC), they buff.

I guess I feel like a bit of a crank here, but there's really no other explanation that fits the facts, as far as I'm concerned. Warriors will not be buffed (even minor buffs) unless they fall to sub-20% representation like DKs did.

Tank balance is a joke because it's not based on balance.
Post #130 http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23329393846&postId=233270353561&sid=1#130


Zarko has posted in more than one thread. Zarko concluded, as I have, that representation is either a metric used for tank balance, or possibly the major metric used. The "can't nerf bears" statement underscores the likelihood of this position.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Dantriges » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:29 pm

Perhaps we should start a new thread with some consolidated ideas about rotation and the data dump. This thing is 102 pages long and I tried to find proposed single and aoe rotations and did not find them. Also in a thread this long, derails happen.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:31 pm

Dantriges wrote:Perhaps we should start a new thread with some consolidated ideas about rotation and the data dump. This thing is 102 pages long and I tried to find proposed single and aoe rotations and did not find them. Also in a thread this long, derails happen.

They're in my basic FAQ - feel free to comment.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Dantriges » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:35 pm

Ah ok thanks.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:40 pm

Yeah, this is a discussion thread. Distilled wisdom will happen in other, less commented upon threads.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby callimar » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I don't see it as a consistent issue. Just that the probability is there, as Callimar found out.


Hah yup. My point behind all that wasn't that there were not ways to survive. I know I had CD's. I was just doing what GC suggested and using our abilities that can interrupt as an interrupt. In this instance I came up short. The group I was in eventually did kill the boss by using CD's as you suggested.

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Darielle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:57 pm

Zarko has posted in more than one thread. Zarko concluded, as I have, that representation is either a metric used for tank balance, or possibly the major metric used. The "can't nerf bears" statement underscores the likelihood of this position.


Not quite. Like any half-decent poster, he kept his opinions out of his data-gathering and didn't infer anything that couldn't be linked out of it. He notes representation changes and (as well all do) knows that the buffs/nerfs would have had some impact on them, but he didn't try to turn those threads into "Representation does this" type stuff where he pulls two numbers and try to make them mean something when he didn't know what the full reasons and variables were.

I'm pointing to the Representation threads specifically because I'm going to assume that's the reason namedropping is somewhat significant enough for you to use HIM in a comment about Representation. Because otherwise, as much as I like him, he's one random poster on the internet.

The entire project started because GC (and people on the forum) were making claims about representation.

Here's one of the threads:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1

I wonder if this boss' Shock Blast is Grounded by the totem and if the Grounding Totem Glyph wouldn't be loltastic.


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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:53 pm

First results are rolling in. I'm going to start working on the talent and glyph comparisons next.

TLDR Summary
  • Our new queue is ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW. Feel free to slip Cons in above HW if the boss is stationary and mana isn't an issue.
  • This is equivalent to the following (dubbed "939") rotation: CS-J-CS-X-CS-ShoR, where X is filled with AS if it's available, or HW otherwise.
  • Yes, this is bad news for Grand Crusader. More on that soon.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Mneme » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:10 pm

Gonna try to nip this one in the bud:

Before people start to moan and groan about how Grand Crusader is "worthless," try to understand that it's not necessarily designed to be a single-target tanking talent. That said, it IS still useful in a single-target rotation if you end up having to frequently interrupt, or if there are unexpected adds that pop up.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby d503 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:18 pm

Mneme wrote:Gonna try to nip this one in the bud:

Before people start to moan and groan about how Grand Crusader is "worthless," try to understand that it's not necessarily designed to be a single-target tanking talent. That said, it IS still useful in a single-target rotation if you end up having to frequently interrupt, or if there are unexpected adds that pop up.


You speak as if you designed it yourself...

I'd argue that Blizzard designed it to add some spontaneity and dynamic action to our rotation (a la Sword & Board).

I think no one is discounting the utility of having AS up more, but many of us, myself included, are saying that we'd rather have it be a meaningful proc that allows us to make dynamic threat-increasing decisions, instead of a nice-to-have-for-next-non-CS-GCD ability.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:25 pm

Mneme wrote:Gonna try to nip this one in the bud:

Before people start to moan and groan about how Grand Crusader is "worthless," try to understand that it's not necessarily designed to be a single-target tanking talent. That said, it IS still useful in a single-target rotation if you end up having to frequently interrupt, or if there are unexpected adds that pop up.

I (strongly) disagree.

GrC was clearly designed as a "tanking" proc, our equivalent to "Sword & Board" - it's supposed to be useful in both our single target and AE tanking rotations.

Under the 4.5 sec Crusader Strike CD that the bulk of our spec development occurred under, it was a useful proc. Then, at the last minute, we were changed from 4.5 sec to 3.0 sec CS. Suddenly, GrC because nearly worthless for single-target tanking.

I'd also say that GrC is crap for interrupting - relying on a proc to reset your interrupt is bad. Add in the fact that our interrupt is on GCD and part of our threat rotation and you're really clutching at straws to fins a use for it.

We don't need an interrupt in 4.0.1 anyway. We have no idea if we'll need one in Cata raids, but we're getting one at some point and it will be HoJ, not AS.

As for "GrC is good for AE tanking" - what AE tanking are you planning to do on the real servers in 4.0.1 or 4.0.3? And why would you spec for it?

By the time we hit level 85, GrC might be the same or it might be awesome. For your spec tomorrow, you're mad to take it.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:31 pm

and now it is our Crimson Scourge
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