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Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby aranil » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:02 am

knaughty wrote:
aranil wrote:I don't want a shockwave clone!

FIXT!

Holy Wrath working on everything and auto-crit on undead/demons would be nice. I'd like some more AE snap-aggro tools, given we don't have an AE fixate.

Not saying I don't want a snap high aggro tool like Shockwave, and allowing Holy Wrath to hit non undead would be awesome. I'd just rather not have Lightwave, shockwave with holy damage. It looks like Blinding shield could act in that manner, and that might not be wholly bad.
And I'm talking in circles, I don't want shockwave, I want blidninng shield to be shockwave, I don't want a cloned ability, I think I'm going to stop.

Oh, and on the prot warrior tanking rotation. I don't find it as faceroll as ret, simply cause of two random proc abilities (Sword and board, and revenge to a small degree is proc based)
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby PsiVen » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:58 pm

Holy Wrath was like that for a while, as I recall. Maybe it was in Beta but it got changed pretty quickly. I can't see it coming back given the nerfs to AoE threat. Perhaps a Ret talent would allow them to have it.

There seems to be a lot of overlap between HW and Blinding Shield. I wouldn't be surprised if the ability got changed altogether.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby mavfin » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:36 pm

knaughty wrote:
aranil wrote:I don't want a shockwave clone!

FIXT!

Holy Wrath working on everything and auto-crit on undead/demons would be nice. I'd like some more AE snap-aggro tools, given we don't have an AE fixate.


As far as the consecration nerf, in all the talent trees I see from the beta, Shockwave's been cut in half, too, and TC isn't the snap-aggro tool it was, either. So, we'll have to see if this is intended, or just numbers not yet done...

You can have an AE fixate...on a 3 min cooldown, same as mine. :D (at least I think it's still 3 min...)
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:20 am

I must admit, tanking on my warrior alt has made me very jealous. They just have so many tools to work with that tanking on a paladin seems bland by comparison.

I'd love to have Shockwave (though Holy Wrath could easily fit that bill, and does in ICC), Spell Reflect, and an off-GCD interrupt. Oh, and three charge-like abilities to zoom around the battlefield!
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Chicken » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:28 am

I actually suspect Blinding Shield will be our Shockwave. The effect isn't exactly the same, but they're pretty comparable. Assuming they're successful in copying how Eadric the Pure's spell works (As I suspect that's why it's not implemented yet) we'd have a variation where it hits everything around us looking in our direction, while Shockwave hits everything in front of the Warrior regardless of what direction they're facing.

Though I have to agree with PsiVen that Blinding Shield and Holy Wrath kind of overlap. Both are 'snap' AoE holy abilities with some limitation on what they hit. For Blinding Shield the limitation is that enemies have to look at you, for Holy Wrath the limitation is that the enemies have to be either Undead or Demons. Both abilities even inflict a stun (Technically a Blind for Blinding Shield, but that's comparable).
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Mutley » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:48 am

Chicken wrote:we'd have a variation where it hits everything around us looking in our direction


That would make it pretty useless. As it would only increase threat on mobs you already have agro on, and would do nothing against mobs hitting anyone that isn't standing directly on top of you.

The problem atm is getting mobs to attack you in the first place, not keep them on you when they are already attacking you.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Chicken » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:01 am

Mutley wrote:
Chicken wrote:we'd have a variation where it hits everything around us looking in our direction


That would make it pretty useless. As it would only increase threat on mobs you already have agro on, and would do nothing against mobs hitting anyone that isn't standing directly on top of you.

The problem atm is getting mobs to attack you in the first place, not keep them on you when they are already attacking you.
It'd be very usable for pickups actually, though problematic in cases where you don't know beforehand where the mobs would spawn. Take Lady Deathwhisper for example, you know exactly where the mobs spawn, and can from that predict which way they'll run after spawning, because of that you can position yourself in such a way that your Blinding Shield hits all mobs; the same applies to a newly pulled group of mobs, you can in fact be almost entirely certain how they'll be running to you/the rest of the raid. It doesn't work too well in a situation with a stream of mobs (Worms from Abominations at Dreamwalker) or a situation where mobs spawn in random locations (Fire elementals at Sartharion), but then again neither does Shockwave.

It will occasionally require some thought to using the ability, but that's usually seen as a good thing. Though having said that, it also lends itself well to "Damn it I swear that mob was looking at me when I used it" situations, but again, that's a limitation shared by most anything.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby baneoftruth » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:41 am

theckhd wrote:I must admit, tanking on my warrior alt has made me very jealous. They just have so many tools to work with that tanking on a paladin seems bland by comparison.

I'd love to have Shockwave (though Holy Wrath could easily fit that bill, and does in ICC), Spell Reflect, and an off-GCD interrupt. Oh, and three charge-like abilities to zoom around the battlefield!

Nooooo! Theck! Come back from the Dark Side!

Actually, I also found tanking on my warrior alt to be an interesting shift from my paladin, but I'll always prefer the paladin (it plays to personality I guess). Anyway, I only have one foot left in this game as of late, but I'd still hate to see class homogenization happen where warriors/paladins could do essentially the same things with different spell names. The way that I looked at it back in Wrath progression was that my class was awesome in Naxx, still awesome in Ulduar, still awesome in ToC, and then we were superheroes in ICC. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it, haha...of course, on a sidenote...screw General Vezax.

That said, if Holy Wrath was changed to hit everything, but only do 2x damage+stun to undead, that would work for me. It's not quite shockwave, but it gives us an AoE snap tool that's more unique to paladins. An interrupt for all tanking classes would be nice too...
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby aranil » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:22 am

baneoftruth wrote: An interrupt for all tanking classes would be nice too...

I've actually heard people argue against paladins getting an interput. It makes DK and warriors speical, why must paladins also get it?
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:28 am

aranil wrote:
baneoftruth wrote: An interrupt for all tanking classes would be nice too...

I've actually heard people argue against paladins getting an interput. It makes DK and warriors speical, why must paladins also get it?

You forgot druids - they have one as well.....
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:48 am

theckhd wrote:I must admit, tanking on my warrior alt has made me very jealous. They just have so many tools to work with that tanking on a paladin seems bland by comparison.

I'd love to have Shockwave (though Holy Wrath could easily fit that bill, and does in ICC), Spell Reflect, and an off-GCD interrupt. Oh, and three charge-like abilities to zoom around the battlefield!


Forge of Souls, normal or heroic, see if you can kill the linked target reflecting Phantom Blast. I did it 4 times one weekend.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby aranil » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:00 am

Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:I must admit, tanking on my warrior alt has made me very jealous. They just have so many tools to work with that tanking on a paladin seems bland by comparison.

I'd love to have Shockwave (though Holy Wrath could easily fit that bill, and does in ICC), Spell Reflect, and an off-GCD interrupt. Oh, and three charge-like abilities to zoom around the battlefield!


Forge of Souls, normal or heroic, see if you can kill the linked target reflecting Phantom Blast. I did it 4 times one weekend.

*looks innocent* I stopped DPSing....
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:28 am

aranil wrote:
baneoftruth wrote: An interrupt for all tanking classes would be nice too...

I've actually heard people argue against paladins getting an interput. It makes DK and warriors speical, why must paladins also get it?


Because being able to reliably interrupt Evil Spell of Doom That Will Kill You seems like something every tank should have access to, especially since all 3 of the other tanks have it. Having to rely on other players to do that interrupting is a pretty significant disadvantage, especially in 5- or 10-mans.

Also note that we do have an interrupt (HoJ), but it's on the GCD and on a long cooldown. Good luck interrupting a 1.5-second cast without completely stopping your rotation and waiting.

I feel similarly about the Demo Shout / Tclap debuffs, and think DKs should have them. There should be a basic tanking toolkit that each class has:
-Taunt
-Interrupt, preferably off-GCD and on a reasonable cooldown (30s or less)
-Silence for caster mobs, so you can move them
-AP reduction
-Attack speed reduction
-Ranged pull
-Single-target and AoE threat capabilities

Each class can have stuff above and beyond that, of course. But they shouldn't lack any of those things.

Warriors really do have an amazing toolkit for casters. Shockwave/Conc/Charge/Intercept for stunning, Shield Bash for interrupts/silence, Spell Reflect. It's incredibly fun to play compared to a Paladin.

Flex wrote:Forge of Souls, normal or heroic, see if you can kill the linked target reflecting Phantom Blast. I did it 4 times one weekend.

You sir, have just made my daily trinket runs infinitely more interesting. :twisted:
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Chicken » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:44 pm

theckhd wrote:I feel similarly about the Demo Shout / Tclap debuffs, and think DKs should have them.
They're actually going to add a 'Demo Shout' to Blood Death Knights in Cataclysm as it's currently looking, that's their new tanking spec as well, they already have the Tclap debuff in the form of Icy Touch. See here.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Torquemada » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:34 pm

theckhd wrote:Because being able to reliably interrupt Evil Spell of Doom That Will Kill You seems like something every tank should have access to, especially since all 3 of the other tanks have it. Having to rely on other players to do that interrupting is a pretty significant disadvantage, especially in 5- or 10-mans.

Also note that we do have an interrupt (HoJ), but it's on the GCD and on a long cooldown. Good luck interrupting a 1.5-second cast without completely stopping your rotation and waiting.

I feel similarly about the Demo Shout / Tclap debuffs, and think DKs should have them. There should be a basic tanking toolkit that each class has:
-Taunt
-Interrupt, preferably off-GCD and on a reasonable cooldown (30s or less)
-Silence for caster mobs, so you can move them
-AP reduction
-Attack speed reduction
-Ranged pull
-Single-target and AoE threat capabilities

Each class can have stuff above and beyond that, of course. But they shouldn't lack any of those things.

Warriors really do have an amazing toolkit for casters. Shockwave/Conc/Charge/Intercept for stunning, Shield Bash for interrupts/silence, Spell Reflect. It's incredibly fun to play compared to a Paladin.


I'm also hoping for all tank classes to be able to maintain secondary threat/provide more than meager dps when not tanking, but hopefully Vengeance will solve that.
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