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Patch 4.0 and ICC

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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Flex » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:07 pm

All tanks have a 10% physical damage reduction debuff. IE all the Demo Shout debuffs were changed to be more clear and less cryptic.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Xequecal » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Flex wrote:All tanks have a 10% physical damage reduction debuff. IE all the Demo Shout debuffs were changed to be more clear and less cryptic.


No, I get that, but the AP debuffs that they replaced were worth more than 10% reduction on bosses. In addition, that 10% barely compensates for the DR that tanks lost, so you're basically just tanking in a world where AP debuffs don't exist and you have 9000 less armor. Pre-patch Paladins had 15% DR, (6% Imp RF, 3% Sanctuary, 3% other talent, 3% divine plea) now they have 10% from talents and 10% from demo shout/vindication but the AP debuffs are gone. DKs had more than 15% base DR prepatch so they're feeling it worse.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Iben » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:44 pm

As to the ground effects missing

Interface > Display > Turn off "Emphasize my spell effects"

Worked for everyone in my raid.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby 99sitr » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:52 am

I ran through ICC last night on 25m (in a pug none-the-less) and actually had very few issues at all with threat and people pulling off of me. WThe instances of when someone would pull of off me were the large trash packs before Marrowgar and the large pull entering the Plague Wing. Usually it was one warrior who was fury with Shadowmourne and in almost full 277 gear, so in large degree it was somewhat expected as their AoE output is quite high. I would like to add that I am running all the dps glyphs ATM due to the fact that I wasn't too sure how threat was going to turn out and my avg ilvl is 268 (6112 GS).

I found that the change to fix crusade made a large difference to AoE threat, more so than I had anticipated. Also having Holy Wrath on a 15 second CD is great for trash in there and I always swapped a glyph for it pre patch and now I don't have to.

I'm sitting at about 22.42% dodge and 21.89% parry with my normal raid buffs and the rest is mastery ATM (hitcapped but exp is only at 21 ATM). I would like to get a 277 piece or 2 to supplement soe reforging changes to get exp capped and pull more dodge for more mastery but that will come in time. My macro in game showed me hitting 97.80% of 102.4% towards unhittable so I'm getting closer.

On boss pulls I found threat to be fine after about the 15 second mark and this was without rogues or hunters in the raid. All in all I'm enjoying the changes and with the debuff now removed from ICC it's a vast difference from what it was before the patch, well to me at least.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Meloree » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:49 pm

inthedrops wrote:
I think everything is easier but LK is a little bit harder (at least the heroic version).


I think H-LK is significantly easier. It's just that mechanics are different enough to require a small amount of relearning. However, if you imagine yourself doing progression on this version, I do think it's significantly easier to deal with all the mechanics, overall.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby inthedrops » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:20 am

Meloree wrote:
inthedrops wrote:
I think everything is easier but LK is a little bit harder (at least the heroic version).


I think H-LK is significantly easier. It's just that mechanics are different enough to require a small amount of relearning. However, if you imagine yourself doing progression on this version, I do think it's significantly easier to deal with all the mechanics, overall.


Tank deaths were an issue for us. Warrior in P1 on Shamblers, and me in P2 during the scary Defile + Valks scenario with lots of required healer movement. Not sure what our healing comp was.

The reason I say it feels harder is not because of mechanics, but because of class changes. I am not used to dying on that fight. We took ~8 attempts before we killed it and I died on more than one of them. Even on the kill I died and got rezzed.

So perhaps I should rephrase. Maybe LK itself isn't more difficult, but staying alive as a tank sure seems to be.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Mcduffie » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:09 am

inthedrops wrote: I am not used to dying on that fight. We took ~8 attempts before we killed it and I died on more than one of them. Even on the kill I died and got rezzed.

So perhaps I should rephrase. Maybe LK itself isn't more difficult, but staying alive as a tank sure seems to be.

Shouldn't you have died on all of them?
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Arianne » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:41 am

He meant died first, as in, the person that caused the wipe. Generally pre-4.0.1 that was almost never the tank but instead due to someone messing up defile or Valks.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Belloc » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:21 pm

inthedrops wrote:
Meloree wrote:
inthedrops wrote:
I think everything is easier but LK is a little bit harder (at least the heroic version).


I think H-LK is significantly easier. It's just that mechanics are different enough to require a small amount of relearning. However, if you imagine yourself doing progression on this version, I do think it's significantly easier to deal with all the mechanics, overall.


Tank deaths were an issue for us. Warrior in P1 on Shamblers, and me in P2 during the scary Defile + Valks scenario with lots of required healer movement. Not sure what our healing comp was.

The reason I say it feels harder is not because of mechanics, but because of class changes. I am not used to dying on that fight. We took ~8 attempts before we killed it and I died on more than one of them. Even on the kill I died and got rezzed.

So perhaps I should rephrase. Maybe LK itself isn't more difficult, but staying alive as a tank sure seems to be.


Sounds like you're dying because of the armor mechanic change (and the overall armor reduction). Bosses are hitting harder and it is very easy to see on LK.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby inthedrops » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:09 am

Yes, that combined with having to readjust my cooldown rotation (as Meloree would say, relearning the fight) made it more challening that before. Incidentally, the adjustment I made to cooldowns was to rely on more safeguards. My warrior co-heart said it's actually easier now since there is no longer a minimum range on intervene.

I didn't notice "scary low health" on any other fights. We're heading back in there tonight. We shall see.

Meloree, what aspects of the fight make it easier? I can't think of anything off-hand but perhaps for other classes/roles it is. I know you're also the raid lead so you'd know.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:53 am

inthedrops wrote:
Meloree, what aspects of the fight make it easier? I can't think of anything off-hand but perhaps for other classes/roles it is. I know you're also the raid lead so you'd know.

I'd imagine the higher DPS is what is making it easier for some (getting through phases faster). I know I wasn't pulling 16k pre-4.0.1 :P
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Kihra » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:50 pm

inthedrops wrote:Yes, that combined with having to readjust my cooldown rotation (as Meloree would say, relearning the fight) made it more challening that before. Incidentally, the adjustment I made to cooldowns was to rely on more safeguards. My warrior co-heart said it's actually easier now since there is no longer a minimum range on intervene.

I didn't notice "scary low health" on any other fights. We're heading back in there tonight. We shall see.

Meloree, what aspects of the fight make it easier? I can't think of anything off-hand but perhaps for other classes/roles it is. I know you're also the raid lead so you'd know.


I had two interesting deaths when tanking H LK that were both my fault. I can share those in case they explain any issues others might have been having.

Death #1:

[21:19:36.637] The Lich King Soul Reaper Kihradin 68164 (O: -1, R: 8415)
[21:19:38.882] The Lich King hits Kihradin 36963 (O: -1, A: 161, B: 15910)
[21:19:40.599] Kihradin's Holy Shield fades
[21:19:41.689] The Lich King Soul Reaper Kihradin 48319 (O: -1, A: 8382)
[21:19:43.077] The Lich King hits Kihradin 35995 (O: -1, A: 1897, B: 16239)
[21:19:43.978] The Lich King hits Kihradin 48705 (O: 6085, A: 444)

I just got completely flustered. Because my Holy Wrath is used to stun Valks, etc., I ended up falling out of 939, since I had to hold Holy Wrath in reserve. That combined with Defile movement, etc., and I essentially just screwed up and let Holy Shield fall off briefly.

As you can see, the minute you let Holy Shield fall, you can take an unblocked hit for ~43% more damage than a blocked hit would be. Unblocked hits on H LK are basically death.

Death #2:

[20:42:09.416] Kihradin gains Ardent Defender from Kihradin
[20:42:09.416] Kihradin casts Ardent Defender
[20:42:10.504] The Lich King Soul Reaper Kihradin 42991 (O: -1, A: 13710)
[20:42:11.121] The Lich King Infest Kihradin 5828 (O: -1, A: 1456, R: 5781)
[20:42:12.079] The Lich King hits Kihradin 27404 (O: -1, A: 9736, B: 15917)
[20:42:13.142] The Lich King Infest Kihradin 102 (O: -1, A: 1249, R: 625)
[20:42:15.671] The Lich King hits Kihradin 28463 (O: -1, A: 9833, B: 16412)
[20:42:19.336] The Lich King hits Kihradin 44462 (O: -1, A: 11840)
[20:42:19.336] Kihradin's Ardent Defender fades
[20:42:21.032] The Lich King hits Kihradin 48633 (O: 1388)

At one point in the fight, we do a rather rapid cross to the other side (I think it's after the third defile). You can see that I had a cooldown properly running during Soul Reaper, but I messed up the strafe to the other side and let LK get on my back briefly.

Positioning mistakes like this are brutal now, since if you ever present your back to LK, you're taking ~43% more damage than if you kept him facing you. It completely negated any advantage I had from my 20% CD running, and two unblocked hits took me down.

I think the positioning issue is going to be the most surprising for people. If you screwed up your positioning slightly before 4.0, worst case you'd just take some unavoidable hits that healers had to be ready for anyway. But now if you screw up your positioning you're going to get hammered for ~43% more damage than pre-4.0. Turning your back to a boss, even briefly, is now utterly lethal. A blocked hit in 4.0 is just as big as an unblocked hit pre-4.0 because the new armor formulas are being used and because we lost tons of armor and DR from talents etc.
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby inthedrops » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:12 pm

That's a great point about holy shield fading, I'm need to be especially careful about that. Thanks for taking the time to share!
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Kihra » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:34 pm

inthedrops wrote:That's a great point about holy shield fading, I'm need to be especially careful about that. Thanks for taking the time to share!


Yeah, I set up a Power Aura for Holy Shield now, so that the minute it falls off I get a giant square in my face. :)
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Re: Patch 4.0 and ICC

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:57 pm

By the way, regarding the armor changes and resulting damage increases in ICC,

Now that our live class balance changes are slowing down* and players are starting to learn their class changes, we can get a better idea of whether players are struggling more on content that they used to be able to clear. We've made some Icecrown and Halion changes already and we may need to make more.


If you guys think that heroic LK is hitting too hard, especially when playing properly, let them know.
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