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Help Evaluate Raid DPS

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Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Bladeheart » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:07 am

Hi everyone,

I've come back for WoW back in July with friends and have been constantly raiding ICC 10 at the least. We're not that hardcore, but we're discussing on attempting a few heroics. I was just wondering if the raid dps would be enough (I know that this is a pally forum primarily, but I believe there are a number of raid leaders out there who might be able to give input).

Here's the log of our normal attempt on Saurfang: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xh9p ... 778&e=7041

Most of the dps are at least 25man geared (with around 5.7-6k GS), with the exception of Nardungputik, who just came back the last week and needs a bit of gearing; and Madre who usually heals.

I started to wonder because Madre wasn't that far behind the other locks in dps (even if decked out in mixed healing gear and some of the pieces that was left out for him because the locks didn't need it anymore), so could anyone give me any ballpark numbers on what should be the locks' dps on a typical ICC10 raid?

I could link their armories as well, if needed.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:50 am

Bladeheart wrote:Hi everyone,

I've come back for WoW back in July with friends and have been constantly raiding ICC 10 at the least. We're not that hardcore, but we're discussing on attempting a few heroics. I was just wondering if the raid dps would be enough (I know that this is a pally forum primarily, but I believe there are a number of raid leaders out there who might be able to give input).

Here's the log of our normal attempt on Saurfang: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xh9p ... 778&e=7041

Most of the dps are at least 25man geared (with around 5.7-6k GS), with the exception of Nardungputik, who just came back the last week and needs a bit of gearing; and Madre who usually heals.

I started to wonder because Madre wasn't that far behind the other locks in dps (even if decked out in mixed healing gear and some of the pieces that was left out for him because the locks didn't need it anymore), so could anyone give me any ballpark numbers on what should be the locks' dps on a typical ICC10 raid?

I could link their armories as well, if needed.


10s are tricky because you can't always assume full buffs. However, you definitely want to make use of what you do have. Both of your locks, in a very caster-heavy raid, were using DPS curses, and one of them should have been using Curse of Elements (Destruction or Demo locks, by preference, they lose less damage to put it up). It's worth noting that even for an affliction lock it's a personal dps upgrade to use Curse of Elements over Curse of Agony if the debuff isn't otherwise provided. It would be an enormous RDPS upgrade, considering all of your DPS, including the ret pally, is magical.

RDPS overall is pretty low, but that's partly because you're rocking 3 healers. The only DPS who is really wildly underperforming the bare minimum for hardmodes is your mage. You do want to be killing Saurfang a little faster than that, somewhere around the 3 minute mark would be a good benchmark for hardmode level RDPS. Ideally Saurfang is a 2-healer fight, the longer it goes on, the harder it gets. The good news is that you have a really nice composition for hardmodes - hardmodes love ranged.

So, it's tough to evaluate your raids individual performance, given that we can't even assume that the raidbuffs that should be available from that log were up, based on the Curse of Elements routine. That's going to be your first job for increasing RDPS. Make sure that you were getting Windfury, Wrath of Air, Stoneskin, Strength of Earth, and Flametongue totems out of your shaman, make sure the mage had focus magic up where it would be most useful (Shadowpriest, probably), make sure the locks put up CoE - either one would do better personal DPS with it, and it would be around a 12% increase in your overall RDPS. Yes, really. That's one of the major buffs, left on the table.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby hoho » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:02 am

Your shadowpriest doesn't seem to push some buttons fast enough (lots of dead time between spells) and some buttons too fast (overwrites last dot ticks on both VT and DP very often). Send him to search more information from shadowpriest.com :) Also, he is likely using some very bad gear, namely the hit/haste trinket.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Bladeheart » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:40 am

Thanks for the quick replies!

@Meloree: yeah I checked with out lock and he said he was just testing out CoD for personal reasons, he usually uses CoE. When we try out hardmodes though, we are going to bring a boomkin, so we're going to have earth and moon.

A question though, so assuming we do this with only 2 healers and the mage would step up in line with the others, would we have a shot at Saurfang? (Of course this is also assuming we handle the runic power gains in an acceptable manner as well)

@Hoho: Yeah, as I've said, he normally heals for this fight (we brought a new guy in to start gearing him up - and he was a resto shaman, so we told our priest to dps...which he doesnt have gear for). What's actually odd though, is even with shitty dps gear, he almost reached the damage done of the locks.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:00 am

Bladeheart wrote:Thanks for the quick replies!

@Meloree: yeah I checked with out lock and he said he was just testing out CoD for personal reasons, he usually uses CoE. When we try out hardmodes though, we are going to bring a boomkin, so we're going to have earth and moon.

A question though, so assuming we do this with only 2 healers and the mage would step up in line with the others, would we have a shot at Saurfang? (Of course this is also assuming we handle the runic power gains in an acceptable manner as well)


You want at least 30% more raid DPS than you have, for Saurfang Hardmode, in my opinion. 11% or more is from CoE. Roughly 15% from another DPS. The rest, your raid has to find from personal performance improvements. Most of the other hardmodes you can get away with somewhat less RDPS than Saurfang - most of them encourage 2-healer setups.

Here's a WMO of one of our earlier Saurfang 10H kills you can compare with - sorry, no WoL back that far, I'm too cheap to pay for it. I think that kill is at 0%, or maybe 5% - not sure, but it's the earliest one I found - is getting pretty close to the time-limit for the fight, it's probably a good benchmark for RDPS. It's also worth noting that everyone in that kill will have been at a pretty low gear level by todays standards - a mix of 251/264 tier, and 245-264 offset, so it's certainly not an unreachable performance benchmark.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Bladeheart » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:21 am

That helps out greatly, Meloree. Thanks! :)
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:43 am

Lurkie and Madrè would be benefited by getting ForteXorcist or EventHorizon or some other DoT management mod. They all have big breaks between their DoT spells and they should be able to keep them up on DBS mostly full time (recast a DoT right before the beasts spawn so that it lasts through the time they're DPS'ing the beasts).

Madrè should be doing VT -> SW:P on both BB then doing MB/MF on one. DP should stay on DBS. He should take SW:D off his bars so that he stops using it.

Our affliction warlock just spams shadow bolt on blood beasts and our demo warlock does shadowbolt plus immolate -> incinerate and soul fire.

Your mage is using fireball for some reason... He should be using PoM-AB not PoM-FB. He should be doing ABlastx3-4 then AM if MB procs. If it doesn't he can either use ABarr to reset his ABlast stacks or he can keep going with ABlast until it does proc. If he's running out of mana he should choose to ABarr, but if not he should choose to ABlast. If MB procs then he should use AM and NOT ABarr (he seems to be doing both AM and AB after a MB proc - it may just be that he doesn't have a clear display of when MB procs and may need PowerAuras or TellMeWhen). It also seems like he's running around away from blood beasts? I dunno, his AB stacks reset fairly frequently around the time that blood beasts are taking damage.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Bladeheart » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:38 am

Could you tell me where you see that? I'd love to bring this up to them?

I only saw the uptime of their dots on the summary page.
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:37 am

Mouse over 'Damage Done' and go to the 'Expression Editor' tool. In the box at the top left, put in:
sourceName="<playername>"

Hit run. What shows up should be a list of whatever that player did during the fight. There's a link on the upper right that leads to a forum thread about what the various options are. Mostly you can filter out spells by doing spell != "blah" or find specific targets by doing targetName="blah", though there's plenty of other stuff you can do.

Click on the tab that says 'Timeline' then press 'Plot spells timeline'. Now you can see vaguely what the person is doing over time. If you look at Nardungputik, for example, you can see that there's a bunch of ABlasts, then an AB. Then more ABlasts, then AM, then AB, then AM. AM shows up kinda weird sometimes because it's a bunch of casts that then hit a few seconds later than they're cast, so he can start casting another spell while AMs are still hitting the target (but you can go back to the 'Results' tab and look at that section of the fight to see in detail what's going on. ABlast also shows up kinda weird because there's the spell cast and then there's the debuff that he applies to himself when the spell ends.

The list of spells on the side is everything that was cast during the current time period (and there's a link at the bottom of the 'Results' section that lets you look at the next time period). So if you're an Arcane Mage, you shouldn't see Fireball over there in that list. I'm guessing that he has a PVP macro left over from sometime that does PoM fireball and he just hits the button and doesn't think about it. ;)
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Re: Help Evaluate Raid DPS

Postby Bladeheart » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:04 am

Wow. i didnt see that before.

Appreciate this Arianne.
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