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[10] Normal LK raid composition

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[10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Uprisen » Sun May 02, 2010 4:20 pm

Well thanks to the 15% icc buff, my casual friends who don't really raid + myself have been able to get to LK. I've done LK before on my main but I've never done it as a tank/raid leader, and naturally with the last boss of ICC about to get downed, everyone wants in. Six of the ten people I've listed below are my RL friends and I won't be subbing them out, but I was hoping the forum community could help me pick out the last 4 spots.

[1] Tank: Prot paladin
[2] Tank: Prot warrior
[3] Healer: Resto shaman (Ele offspec)
[4] Healer: Holy paladin
[5] Healer: Resto druid

[6] DPS: Survival hunter
[7] DPS:
[8] DPS:
[9] DPS:
[10] DPS:

edit: Also, these players are pretty casual players and aren't the best at maximizing their class. What sort of average DPS should they be aiming for in able to beat the LK enrage timer?
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Steve » Sun May 02, 2010 6:23 pm

The comp doesn't matter. As long as you can keep the number of shamblers to two, you are fine.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Rannskita » Sun May 02, 2010 7:49 pm

You may want a disc priest to preshield for infest. If you have 1 point in imp hoj, then you and the hpala can reasonably cover the valks, so no ret specifically needed from that perspective. You shouldn't really be massively gimped if you take one dps class over the other. As for dps needed for beating the enrage, I'd first focus on getting through all the phases; sounds dumb but as this is such a complex phased fight, you'll only know if youre lacking dps when you execute tactics propperly and still wipe due to dps on a certain phase.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Worldie » Mon May 03, 2010 1:19 am

Just make sure it's an actually either full ranged or balanced group, full melee is not a great idea due to Defiles.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Argali » Mon May 03, 2010 5:11 am

Also, don't get complacent with the 15% buff. While it does mean that players who aren't getting the most out of their classes will be able to meet the dps requirements for LK, it's still mostly an execution fight. People will still wipe and fail in cata due to not moving out of defile.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby kysu » Mon May 03, 2010 6:50 am

As other's have said, Don't stack melee. Otherwise you'll have to get fancy for the spirits P3. Your healers are fine (yes disc makes lawl mode) but they will just have to watch infest a little better,

As far as dps I think around a 7k Min is what you need. I may be off but 2 shamblers(if plague is done right) is basically your, "hey our dps is fine" check.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby fafhrd » Mon May 03, 2010 7:50 am

The only dps checks in the fight are:

- pushing him through p1 reasonably quickly
- keeping up with raging spirits on the transitions - having one up coming out of a transition is ok, but you shouldn't be dealing with 2 at once for more than a few seconds at most
- killing valkyrs before they drop someone, which has more to do with stunning and snaring them than dpsing them amazingly well
- keeping up with vile spirits (which can also be made not a dps check by controlled blowing up of them instead)

Of these I think raging spirits are the only ones that can get hairy, the others all have a fair bit of room to adjust to falling behind.

My alt finally got it this week thanks to the 15% buff, but her mostly 251 clad fairly casual (1-2 nights of play a week) 10man has been getting him to 20-30% every now and then for most of the 10% buff too - DPS with the 15% really isn't a problem, only wipes this week were to positioning or control screw ups, leading to people dying to dumb things.

If you're looking at DPS logs for kills of the fight though, keep in mind that WoL averages the DPS over the fight, including the ~2minutes of everyone being dead during the RP at 10% - so until you get to that point, DPS is usually significantly higher. You can get the more accurate number by selecting a fight segment or looking at I think the other DPS column listed on WoL, but the value shown on the ranking pages is the one with all the dead time.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby warden » Mon May 03, 2010 8:19 am

Uprisen wrote:Well thanks to the 15% icc buff, my casual friends who don't really raid + myself have been able to get to LK. I've done LK before on my main but I've never done it as a tank/raid leader, and naturally with the last boss of ICC about to get downed, everyone wants in. Six of the ten people I've listed below are my RL friends and I won't be subbing them out, but I was hoping the forum community could help me pick out the last 4 spots.

[1] Tank: Prot paladin
[2] Tank: Prot warrior
[3] Healer: Resto shaman (Ele offspec)
[4] Healer: Holy paladin
[5] Healer: Resto druid

[6] DPS: Survival hunter
[7] DPS:
[8] DPS:
[9] DPS:
[10] DPS:

edit: Also, these players are pretty casual players and aren't the best at maximizing their class. What sort of average DPS should they be aiming for in able to beat the LK enrage timer?


Thoughts for your other dps spots:
-- I'd reccomend two of the following: Spriest/Lock (afflic or demo)/Fire mage. Having at least one of these, but even better two, will make dealing with vile spirits much easier.
-- A feral druid or rogue. These are going to be some of your best burst melee dps. A ret pally can work here too, but has a longer ramp-up time. Since you're not wanting a melee-heavy comp, I'd pick your melee slot purely for raw dps output, assuming they don't fail at fight mechanics.
-- Watching available buffs is important. Consider the following:
--- Replenishment. You have this with your survival hunter. This is important because of the fight length.
--- MoTW/Brez. Resto druid provides, but another brez never hurts.
--- At least two pally buffs, and two reliable stuns (it sucks when your Imp HoJ holy pally gets snatched by the valk). You have this already.
--- Priest buffs are nice. Although fort can be given via scroll, spirit/shadow prot can't.
--- Passive health regen. If your tankadin is judging wisdom, having VE, JoL, or similar passive health regen is nice. Not essential, but nice. Spriest/Ret provides.
--- 5% crit. If you're running ranged-heavy, and ele sham or boomkin would be nice here.

How I would fill them: Given equally skilled-geared players, I'd probably bring Aff Lock/Ele Sham/Spriest/Rogue, but that's just me. Player>class definately.

Just some thoughts, and GL :)
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Belloc » Mon May 03, 2010 10:24 am

Warden wrote:-- I'd reccomend two of the following: Spriest/Lock (afflic or demo)/Fire mage. Having at least one of these, but even better two, will make dealing with vile spirits much easier.

A single AOE dps on vile spirits is 100% a waste. You're better off single-targeting them, because you will not kill any of them with one AOE. The same goes for having two aoe (we had two warlocks spamming seed last night), you will not kill any of the adds with just two AOE. Two AOE + another ranged will be able to kill most, if not all adds. Three AOE will kill all adds unless something goes terribly wrong.

If you're bringing less than two aoe and an extra range, just single target as many vile spirits down as you can and then run away when they start descending. Let the OT blow them up at that point.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby warden » Mon May 03, 2010 10:30 am

Hmmm... I'll check our log again. I know we normally run Spriest/Lock and they usually drop them pretty easily. Maybe they were getting some help from another ranged and I just didn't see it. I know that the OT didn't take any action on the spirits.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby hoho » Mon May 03, 2010 11:25 am

Belloc wrote:A single AOE dps on vile spirits is 100% a waste.
True, though I'd note that spriests cover roughly twice the area with mind sear than other forms of aoe. I've heard that seed of corruption is bugged and explodes at far higher range than it should aswell but I'm not sure. What I do know is that mind sear scales considerably better than other aoe spells and also doesn't cap out as easily.

But still, a single spriest can't kill most of the spirits unless he has 25-man gear+burns cooldowns (hastepot, racial berserking, ...) on the sear spam and even then it'll be hard.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Belloc » Mon May 03, 2010 11:30 am

Warden wrote:Hmmm... I'll check our log again. I know we normally run Spriest/Lock and they usually drop them pretty easily. Maybe they were getting some help from another ranged and I just didn't see it. I know that the OT didn't take any action on the spirits.

Also keep in mind that we're giving suggestions to someone new to the fight. There's a good chance that their AOE DPS won't be as effective as yours or mine.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby warden » Mon May 03, 2010 12:07 pm

Very good point, compounded that the team I was running with weren't guildies, but a group of alts/mains of a couple of the server's better geared raiding guilds. Thinking back, the spriest is/was arguably the best geared spriest on the server. In that case, in reference to the OP: If you can find 3 talented ranged dps from the category mentioned, aoe is a viable option, but if not, use the single-target method. Also something I forgot to mention in the buffs section:

-- DKs. These are a great solution to providng a missing buff if needed. If you're running caster-heavy, and unholy DK is a great addition to your group. Frost/blood would be good if you were melee heavy (because your hunter is surviv, not marks) and you don't have an enh sham, but a melee-heavy comp is very tough for people first trying LK.
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby knaughty » Mon May 03, 2010 7:40 pm

Things that make a huge difference to easy of fight, in order, most important to least:
  1. Disc priest for infest. Utterly huge. Change your heal team - have the shaman go ele?
  2. Three healers, for when one is picked up by a Valkyr during infest with the tank being smashed. All at once.
  3. Warlock + SP + 3rd ranged for Vile Spirits (You can go 100% ranged DPS if you want).
  4. Two stuns and a snare (Avenger's shield works "OK").
  5. Hunter for tranq in P1 (Holy wrath plus luck can cover it, just try and kill Shambler before next one pops)
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Re: [10] Normal LK raid composition

Postby Belloc » Tue May 04, 2010 9:26 am

Having a tranq is great, but it's not completely necessary on 10-man. My alt's guild is still working on LK and the one issue we haven't run into is shambler tank death. We don't have a hunter or rogue, so he is eating the enrages (he's a DK and we're not stunning them).

But, again, I recommend having a tranq if at all possible.
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