[25H] The Lich King

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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Kaory » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:57 am

Thark wrote:I could use a little help here.

1) Take 2 disc priests, cuz it makes infest trivial
2) Both tanks (or one warrior) should taunt Valkyrs preventing random damage to raid
3) Dont take more than 6 healers on fight. Use less holydins.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby baleogthefierce » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:50 am

Kaory wrote:
Thark wrote:I could use a little help here.

1) Take 2 disc priests, cuz it makes infest trivial
2) Both tanks (or one warrior) should taunt Valkyrs preventing random damage to raid
3) Dont take more than 6 healers on fight. Use less holydins.


Holy Paladins can actually trivialize Infest nearly as well as a Discipline Priest thanks to glyphed Light of Dawn.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Thark » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:07 am

Thank you all for the posts. It's nice to get a second opinion as well as being able to show them other people besides me who think that we're close to a kill if we can beat infest.

After a lot of discussion last night, I think that the issue so far has been our positioning. I was incorrect on a few points on my first post. First we are running just 6 healers, but they kept rotating so much that when I looked at overall logs it looked like 7. Second is that they say we are surviving the first infest just fine (when we're moving back in after the first transition), but that our issue is the second infest. As we're spread out for Defile, they claim that people are too far out of range to make the best use of heals, and that's where our problems lie. I've asked all ranged DPS to stand on the melee DPS while awaiting a defile. I think previously the ranged got too spread out, which caused the issues (although it seems odd that ranged DPS being spread out will kill melee with infest too). I really hope that's all it is.

We have discussed changing our Holy Priest to Discipline for this fight, but nobody thinks that's a real great idea. They think that it will gimp his healing too much with the debuff overlap. We typically do have 2 Holy Paladins using LOD though (but they don't think glyphed LOD is all that great - not sure why). The issue hasn't been any of the others pointed out, as far as I can tell. People are not taking any extra damage, and it's too early for anyone to be eating the Soul Siphon damage. When we get that far I'm keeping Val'kyr on me, but our deaths occur before that point. There's a few logs below if anyone cares to browse and sees something I'm missing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q ... 66&e=11749
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q ... 55&e=10615
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q ... 702&e=9943

After 7 days straight of working on him we didn't get the best attendance/comp yesterday, so we just practiced the changes on normal mode instead of heroic. For anyone else working on parts of this fight, I'd highly recommend setting it to Normal and telling your DPS to lay off of the Lich King. You can get 10+ minutes of practicing Val'kyr/Defile placement per attempt, which I think is much nicer than hoping you get there with everyone up on Heroic while trying to learn it.

On a different note, I also made a few Val'kyr changes.

Circle: Tank stunning, 2 melee DPS, 2 ranged DPS
Diamond: Rogue stunning, 2 melee DPS, 3 ranged DPS
Triangle: Rogue stunning, 2 melee DPS 3 ranged DPS

Which we have made the following changes to.

Circle: Rogue stunning (ret backup), 2 melee DPS, 3 ranged DPS
Diamond: Rogue stunning (ret backup), 4 melee DPS, 1 ranged DPS
Triangle: Tank stunning (holy backup), 0 melee DPS 4 ranged DPS

The rogues say they'll be able to get stuns off quicker/easier being on the first target, so that's an easy change. I also shifted from melee/ranged balance per Val'kyr to trying to stack buff synergy better on each one. Hopefully that will help DPS a bit. I'm also going to change from having the rets assigned to backup stun duty and instead having a ret/holy paladin assigned as backup on each. But as mentioned this is a minor issue. We're pretty consistently able to put the Val'kyr at 60% or lower, but do typically lose a person or two, which while it doesn't help isn't wiping us. I keep telling them that if we can see the last phase with ~22 people up we shouldn't have to do it too many times in order to achieve a kill.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby patches » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:22 am

we were doing 1 disc priest and 1 holy priest but switched to 2 disc priests for infest/tank healing.

During phases 1 and 2, I cover infest for groups 1 and 2 and dispel the plague and throw out some tank healing (or some atonement smite dps!) and the other priest covers infest for groups 3-5.
Phase 1, as you said you have no problems with, is easy, there isn't so much going on that you can't focus.

I'm really interested in why infest is a problem during phase 2 after the initial infest. We had been having some problems taking care of the infest right after the phase transition before we switched to 2 disc priests, I'll take care of my groups and then communicate with the other priest if she needs help, also if one of us gets picked up the other can cover.

There are also more raid cooldowns than you think now. Tranquility can cover an infest just as well as a divine hymn (although you may need to use it in conjunction with an AM or DG, ymmv)
Also, depending on your timing and how well people are stacked up (they should be stacked anyway, right?) you can time a Power Word: Barrier to be sitting over your raid (minus the MT) right before an infest. The barrier works just like your shields do with rapture (the bug that you get multiple mana returns from one aoe, not that barrier gives mana return), each person gets the ~10k absorb from it and it negates an infest for everyone, absorbing more than the max 50k or whatever it's supposed to.

We're currently having problems with valkyrs and defiles, so I'm going to suggest to my raid we do what you said, setting it to normal and practicing there. This also could be part of your problem with infest. If people are slow to react to defiles they may be taking a tick with their shield which won't grow the defile but will eat their shield up.

I'm interested in how your rogues are taking the initial stun for the valkyr. I don't have a rogue and I'm a little more ignorant of rogue mechanics than some other classes, but don't they need some ramp up time to stun?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:43 am

Thark wrote:We typically do have 2 Holy Paladins using LOD though (but they don't think glyphed LOD is all that great - not sure why).


The glyphed version heals for 20% less, but the cooldown is reduced by 10 seconds so it is available for every Infest cast.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Thark » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:20 pm

patches wrote:We're currently having problems with valkyrs and defiles, so I'm going to suggest to my raid we do what you said, setting it to normal and practicing there. This also could be part of your problem with infest. If people are slow to react to defiles they may be taking a tick with their shield which won't grow the defile but will eat their shield up.

I'm interested in how your rogues are taking the initial stun for the valkyr. I don't have a rogue and I'm a little more ignorant of rogue mechanics than some other classes, but don't they need some ramp up time to stun?


Nobody is taking ticks of defile. Outside of some awful ones where it's a wipe in like 2 seconds (see below), they're pretty well controlled.

I have everyone move to the wingtips after the val'kyr spawn. This makes 2 camps, one on either side. From there the person with defile is just doing a 180 and running out, while the rest of the people run to the other side. It works great unless someone stands right where the Val'kyr spawn and get defile, in which case they can't drop it anywhere good.

Pre 4.0 we typically ran 5 paladins (1 prot, 2 ret, 2 holy) so stunning was handled by myself and the (rets preferably, but more often than not they forgot to respec and it was the holy paladins stunning) with the other paladins on backup. After 4.0, only prot paladins can get the HOJ talents, so we've switched to having myself and rogues/feral druids stun. The drawback is that they take longer to get a stun off.

What we've done is make them the primary stunners, and have the ret/holy paladins be the backup stunners in case they get picked up. Because they have about 5s of ramp up time before they can stun, we mark an area on the ground where we stun the mobs. This way I don't stun instantly while the other stuns happen 5s later. It works out pretty well in that they are all getting stunned in roughly the same area, and starting with the full 5s duration stun.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:30 am

Don't forget that your Rogues' Cheap Shot and Warlock Infernal summon both stun off of the targeted DR and can be used as a last ditch effort to burn down a Val'kyr that has not yet dropped its passenger.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby patches » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:44 am

Thark wrote: After 4.0, only prot paladins can get the HOJ talents, so we've switched to having myself and rogues/feral druids stun. The drawback is that they take longer to get a stun off.



The past 2 nights my raid made rediculous improvement. A kill should be soon (18% last night)!

We talked about different stun rotations and found it was most reliable to have a warrior do the initial stun with a shockwave, and have that followed up with single target stuns. It's a few seconds shorter than they are stunned if you do it the "right" way, but it's still long enough for us to get them all down unless something goes wrong.

After the initial shockwave we're using ret/rogue/warrior single target stuns with the feral tank backup and even a demo warlock last ditch backup (go go axe throw)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Thark » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:56 am

Nice stuff!

What was your breakthrough, if you don't mind my asking. How low had you been getting him, and what did you have to change? How many times had you seen P3/P5 before you got to 18%?

I've seen a lot of different stun rotations be successful - from 3x Holy Wrath, to 3x single target stuns, to a mix like you use. I think it's just finding something that works.

With the wackiness in ICC this week we only got in 2 attempts last night, and both looked good. However both times someone flubbed the defile position and the whole raid was in it 3 seconds later. But nobody died to infest, and we looked good on Val'kyr. I had to remind people that they only need to go to 50%. One of the waves we put a Val'kyr to about 15% before it flew off... (there were only 2 that time).

I think I've managed to resolve a lot of our issues. I think it's 1) our positioning wasn't great for infest, and 2) our healers were just operating on FFA/Minimal assignments. We had one Disc priest assigned to groups 3-5, a holy priest on group 2, and the rest were all free assignments. Obviously fixing that makes a difference.

Hopefully you get a kill soon, and we're not far behind!
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby patches » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:03 pm

Well, my raid has gone through a lot. We were one of the first guilds on my server (first horde, I think an alliance guild beat us) to be 11/12 heroic... this was aound the 15% buff I think. Then as we started progressing on LK we lost some key people (main tank got a new job... disc priest moved and was without internet, other main tank went back to college... etc etc etc.)

We had to rebuild our entire raid, more or less. Which really hurt progression. I'd say we started seriously looking at LK about a month ago with a full raid and all the required people. Once we worked out all the kinks (and replaced an offtank we didn't know was terrible until we started talking to him about why he couldn't stun the shamblings when they enraged... he didn't know what enemy cast bars were or how to turn them on, and then we found out he was a clicker, but I digress) we were making serious progress into phase 2 each time. That was our hardest part.

Our now Main tank is amazing. He did tons of research and diagrams and helped us come a long way with defile positionings. Once we improved on that we were able to focus on valkyrs. It kind of all came together this week and we went from losing someone almost every wave to almost never losing someone unless we had a really bad pickup (3 healer pickups seem to be common for us).

We got him to phase 3/5 about 3 times, getting him to around 38% and wiping on the transition right after frostmourne, but once we saw that a few times, the next time in phase 3 we went from 38 to 18. Phase 3 isn't hard, especially if you have people who have done it on 10 man.

We have a good chunk of people with bane, so most of us knew what to do and how to move downstairs, and now we're refining our strat for p3 and soaking. Our OT and MT have worked out some ranged taunting and kiting strats in case someone dies downstairs.

Something else we notice that I hadn't seen anyone talk about was the timing of the last valkyr wave into the 2nd transition phase. In normal, if the valks are spawning and he's at like 42% we'll just ignore them and burn him. In heroic, it seems like the valks are bitches, I've been picked up a few times as a ret paladin during the transition and they'll burn LK and the valkyr will fly over to the edge, and then fly up really high before dropping me so I take a lot of fall damage. This isn't enough to kill me alone, but remorseless winter + fall damage + a tick of pain and suffering will kill me. I just hit my bubble on the drop down, but then my bubble isn't use to soak spirits. Idk, I just haven't heard anyone talk about that before. It was kind of funny the first time, haha.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:14 pm

patches wrote:Something else we notice that I hadn't seen anyone talk about was the timing of the last valkyr wave into the 2nd transition phase. In normal, if the valks are spawning and he's at like 42% we'll just ignore them and burn him. In heroic, it seems like the valks are bitches, I've been picked up a few times as a ret paladin during the transition and they'll burn LK and the valkyr will fly over to the edge, and then fly up really high before dropping me so I take a lot of fall damage. This isn't enough to kill me alone, but remorseless winter + fall damage + a tick of pain and suffering will kill me. I just hit my bubble on the drop down, but then my bubble isn't use to soak spirits. Idk, I just haven't heard anyone talk about that before. It was kind of funny the first time, haha.


When we end up in the position of having valks coming with a near-transition LK, we normally just have all the valk people call out when they get picked up, and they'll catch spam-heals until they're safe. We try to avoid backing off, if we can help it. We also try and stun them just over the edge, if we can manage it, so that the people in them don't get dropped, but don't take winter ticks.
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