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[25H] The Lich King

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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Vrimmel » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:11 pm

What about cooldown map with the new changes? I am a bit unsure how to set it up. Or if 20% cds is enough.

Atm I'm sitting at around 80.5k hp buffed, 27k armor ub (forgot to check buffed)

Basically these are my options:

Divine Protection 20% reduced damage. 1 min cd.
Ardent defender 20% reduced damage. 3 min cd
Trinkets:
Corroded skeleton key 6400 damage absorption. 2 min cd.
Satrina's impeding scarab 4610 increased hp 15 secs. 3 min cd.

Damage reduction cast by other players:
Hand of Sacrifice 30% transfers of all damage, up to maximum entire health to the paladin casting it or 12 seconds.
Pain suppression: 40% reduced damage for 8 secs. Disc priest only talent.
Safeguard: 30% reduced damage for 6 seconds, 10% reduced total threat. Prot warrior only. 30 sec CD
Divine Guardian: 20% reduced damage to everyone in the raid except the caster. Prot paladin only 2 min cd

Please tell me if I forgot anything.

I'm not really sure how to set it up. I have no idea how dangerous the soul reaper is and how much damage reduction is needed. Any help with this appreciated as I hae no experience in making cooldown maps.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Arianne » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:44 am

He casts Soul Reaper every 30 seconds. So you just need to figure out what is the best rotation of your abilities and then fill the ones you can't cover in with external CDs. Trinkets aren't enough to save you, so use those when you get low outside of Soul Reaper CDs.

00:30 Divine Protection
01:00 Ardent Defender (not up til 04:00)
01:30 Divine Protection
02:00 Pain Suppression (not up til 05:00)
02:30 Divine Protection
03:00 Pain Suppression (not up til 06:00)
03:30 Divine Protection (starts repeat of rotation)
04:00 Ardent Defender (not up til 07:00)
04:30 Divine Protection
05:00 Pain Suppression (not up til 08:00)
05:30 Divine Protection

Intervene is a 30s cooldown and is a 30% cooldown rather than a 20% cooldown from Divine Protection. So you may want to replace Divine Protection with Safeguard/Intervene if possible (depending on threat). If you don't have multiple PS then you probably want to use Safeguard/Intervene on that Soul Reaper rather than rely on HoS when there's so much other random damage flying around.

On a different note, has anyone noticed Shambling Horrors behaving oddly with regards to stuns lately? I'm at 10% hit and 12% spell hit and am seeing SH not being stunned sometimes. Seems to happen more during Frenzy than other times. Logs haven't been uploaded yet so I can't look at it in depth, but will edit when I get a chance to. /sigh
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Gaffer » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:47 pm

Arianne wrote:On a different note, has anyone noticed Shambling Horrors behaving oddly with regards to stuns lately?


Obviously logs would answer any question but I know that we had a lot more issues with diminishing returns on stuns throughout the encounter. With Paladins using Holy Wrath more frequently and a bunch of new random stuns, there's a possibility that you're having issues because of this.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:56 am

Arianne wrote:On a different note, has anyone noticed Shambling Horrors behaving oddly with regards to stuns lately? I'm at 10% hit and 12% spell hit and am seeing SH not being stunned sometimes. Seems to happen more during Frenzy than other times. Logs haven't been uploaded yet so I can't look at it in depth, but will edit when I get a chance to. /sigh


HoJ is on spellhit table, shamblers are 83 so require 17% hit to be capped, and TbtL is bugged atm.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Arianne » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:00 pm

Bleh, I think one of our mages was also spec'd into Impact. What else causes stun DR to build after 4.0.1? /shoots people
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:23 pm

Also causes those god damn mages to be having 20k dots rolling on the gouls, making it impossible to keep aggro on. Whoever came up with that prolly needs his head checked, since i doubt thats gonna be kept that way with insanely OP aoe, just wait untill theres this one really hard fight that requires aoe, and then mages will be in great demand aoeing that hard.
Trying to get your mages to understand that its really not helpfull one bit doing so, is rather hard in my experience. (OMGOMG BUT THEY GAIN 10% HASTE OMG OMG, cuz thats a big deal on LK P1...)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Vrimmel » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:22 pm

Arianne wrote:He casts Soul Reaper every 30 seconds. So you just need to figure out what is the best rotation of your abilities and then fill the ones you can't cover in with external CDs. Trinkets aren't enough to save you, so use those when you get low outside of Soul Reaper CDs.

00:30 Divine Protection
01:00 Ardent Defender (not up til 04:00)
01:30 Divine Protection
02:00 Pain Suppression (not up til 05:00)
02:30 Divine Protection
03:00 Pain Suppression (not up til 06:00)
03:30 Divine Protection (starts repeat of rotation)
04:00 Ardent Defender (not up til 07:00)
04:30 Divine Protection
05:00 Pain Suppression (not up til 08:00)
05:30 Divine Protection

Intervene is a 30s cooldown and is a 30% cooldown rather than a 20% cooldown from Divine Protection. So you may want to replace Divine Protection with Safeguard/Intervene if possible (depending on threat). If you don't have multiple PS then you probably want to use Safeguard/Intervene on that Soul Reaper rather than rely on HoS when there's so much other random damage flying around.

On a different note, has anyone noticed Shambling Horrors behaving oddly with regards to stuns lately? I'm at 10% hit and 12% spell hit and am seeing SH not being stunned sometimes. Seems to happen more during Frenzy than other times. Logs haven't been uploaded yet so I can't look at it in depth, but will edit when I get a chance to. /sigh


We have 1-2 PS depending on what the healers spec. Anyways for me 20% damage reduction feels pretty weak. The lk hits me for 35kish with melee, add 70k shadow damage to that and I may barely survive if I'm lucky. Disc priest shields or shield of glory helps, but isn't reliable to handle that burst as it is likely to be eaten by any previous melee strikes unless timed perfectly.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:33 am

Post-4.0.1 once your healers are comfortable with their new mechanics you should not need external help with Soul Reaper unless 3 of your healers are grabbed by Val'kyr Shadowguards.

If you grab Protector of the Innocent, Eternal Glory, and Guarded by the Light you can easily manage the Soul Reaper damage. Simply stack up 3 Holy Power and toss up your Word of Glory about a quarter second before Soul Reaper hits (depending on your latency). Assuming you're looking at around 85k of burst damage coming in, you're able to shield away ~17% (15k) of it easily with a 3HP Word. Paired with your Skeleton Key the damage absorb is more mitigation than your defensive cooldowns alone will provide. If you pair a Word of Glory with Divine Protection or Ardent Defender the Soul Reaper presents very little danger at all. On top of all that, if you get lucky with a Word that costs no Holy Power, you can immediately hit it again to top off after the Soul Reaper hits.

My cooldown map went something like this:
Divine Protection/WoG
Skeleton Key/Fang/WoG
Divine Protection/WoG
Ardent Defender/WoG
Divine Protection/WoG
Skeleton Key/Fang/WoG
etc.

Most folks now won't even see that many Soul Reapers thanks to the high rDPS numbers post-4.0.1. We've also been keeping as many as five ranged DPS on H LK during the transition phase to shorten the second phase.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:47 am

I've never tried to manage my HP/WoG so that I always time it with SR but that seems like a smart maneuver to me. I've been using it only by chance when I notice my HP is lining up well with SR. I tend to WoG during a couple defiles scenarios too. I am not comfortable relying on the timing of it and trinkets. Although I am sure that timed well, it's sufficient. I'm simply saying I don't think I'd be able to time it well without some practice.

My preference since the patch has been to rely on Safeguard more than before. It's easier for Warriors to do it now and it's an awesome cooldown still.

For my rotation it's a little more Adhoc than it used to be but generally speaking I rotate Divine Protection every minute with Safeguards in between. There's one specific place I like to use Ardent Defender. As long as I tell me Warrior in advance he can hit me with SG any time. So you'll hear me say something like "I need your Safeguard in 10".

It's actually made things easier on me as I can adjust cooldowns on the fly better than pre patch.

I've noticed in P3 though when upstairs that I tend to need at least one external cooldown before LK dies. For the first one my DP and AD are available for both SR's, but the next time we come up only DP is available.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Talaii » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:46 pm

inthedrops wrote:I've never tried to manage my HP/WoG so that I always time it with SR but that seems like a smart maneuver to me. I've been using it only by chance when I notice my HP is lining up well with SR. I tend to WoG during a couple defiles scenarios too. I am not comfortable relying on the timing of it and trinkets. Although I am sure that timed well, it's sufficient. I'm simply saying I don't think I'd be able to time it well without some practice.

My preference since the patch has been to rely on Safeguard more than before. It's easier for Warriors to do it now and it's an awesome cooldown still.

For my rotation it's a little more Adhoc than it used to be but generally speaking I rotate Divine Protection every minute with Safeguards in between. There's one specific place I like to use Ardent Defender. As long as I tell me Warrior in advance he can hit me with SG any time. So you'll hear me say something like "I need your Safeguard in 10".

It's actually made things easier on me as I can adjust cooldowns on the fly better than pre patch.

I've noticed in P3 though when upstairs that I tend to need at least one external cooldown before LK dies. For the first one my DP and AD are available for both SR's, but the next time we come up only DP is available.


He'll be casting Vile Spirits when the second soul reaper wears off upstairs. As long as you won't die to the initial tick (PW:S or even just an absorb from paladin mastery is enough, couple it with the Sindragosa trinket's use: if you want), you don't need anything as it expires, since he won't melee you for another three seconds.

Then again, I've been eating reapers with just a 3-HP WoG shield to absorb them at least a couple of times per attempt, and I've only died once to soul reaper since 4.0 hit (which was because we had three healers picked up, rather than the cooldown not being enough). The shield from Word of Glory is amazing.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Øtep » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:13 am

Just putting together a LK25HC talent spec and was wondering if the [Eye for an Eye] talent would have any effect on [Soul Reaper]?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Thark » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:14 pm

I could use a little help here.

We're doing Phase1 and the transition just fine. We're entering P2/P3(Val'kyr phase) well, with everyone up and able to kill the last Raging Spirit before the Val'kyr spawn most times. Here's where our problems start.

There's 25 people alive, and I think we have our positioning down well. The Val'kyr all spawn in the same spot, and all move in the same direction. They are all slowed nearly 100% of the time, and they are all stunned in the same spot every wave. We're probably saving 2/3 of the people most of the time. This isn't what concerns me though.

By the time the second Val'kyr wave spawns, we're usually short 5-8 people. Almost every Val'kyr wave we're losing a lot of people to infest. We're running 7 healers (generally I think 2 Holy Paladins, 2 Resto Shaman, 1 Disc Priest, 1 Holy Priest, and 1 Resto Druid) and still having major issues with it. We changed our positioning for the encounter to give them less movement time (and more time to stand still and heal) but they're still claiming that there is not enough time to heal people up from Infest. People are not taking damage from Remorseless Winter, are not being hit by the Soul Shriek, and generally taking no damage during this phase except Infest, which kills them. I can't help but think that the healers are doing something wrong, when we've already jumped up to using 7 healers, and still can't beat infest.

How can I help out my healers here? I believe they generally have the Disc Priest, Holy Priest, Druid, and one shaman raid healing. It doesn't help that our Disc Priest seems to be picked up 100% of the time, but I just don't find it an acceptable reason for wiping if one healer of 7 is picked up. I don't think they're bad players. For almost every encounter since Brutallus I've been able to give them free reign to work things out themselves, and it's worked well. As a consequent I don't know much about healing anymore. And now I find a situation where I think they are not handling it well, are not working hard to resolve it, and where I don't know enough to do it for them. I don't think that we should be running 7 healers and lose a raid to infest night after night. Am I wrong? How can we fix this?


Of a much more minor note is that we still can't save 100% of the people picked up from Val'kyr. We're very good position-wise. They all spawn in the same spot moving the same direction nearly every time. We have coordinated single target stuns (Prot Paladin/Rogue/Rogue) with backups (Holy/Holy/Ret/Ret) that are applied at the same position every time to keep them together. I think we should be OK if we work out the Infest issue, but I'm still a little concerned that we're not saving everyone every time. We've managed to get to the 4th/5th Val'kyr wave a few times with a limited raid - so I keep telling people we're close to a kill here (At the 5th wave he's only ~55% due to people being dead, and I think we'd be close to 40 if they were alive). My concern is maybe in the AOE vs. Single Target DPS category. I know I've told people with multi-target attacks to go ahead an use them (HoR, Multi-shot, Cleave, etc) and had 4-5 DPS assigned to every Val'kyr with 1 or maybe 2 on free assignment (usually a lock who can hit them all). They've been pushing back that everyone should be on just one mob. Any thoughts there? Is it better to have every DPS focusing on one mob dying, or to have people split on all of the mobs if it's a net DPS increase (the Val'kyr are generally pretty clumped up).
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:04 pm

Øtep wrote:Just putting together a LK25HC talent spec and was wondering if the [Eye for an Eye] talent would have any effect on [Soul Reaper]?


Eye for an Eye has no value for survivability.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Brutalus » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:08 pm

You are correct; 7 healers is far too many, if you need that many then they're doing something wrong. I don't know a whole lot about the healing, but I'll offer my 2 cents anyway:

How many infest debuffs are you usually dealing with? I presume that the disc priest is indeed shielding as many people as possible to reduce the amount of infests you're dealing with, but with that many healers and still problems maybe that's the issue? 6 other healers being incapable of topping off the remaining infests comes across as bizarre to me, maybe you just aren't getting shields and they're getting overwhelmed. If you're struggling on the first infest on the way back in as your priest has not had time to shield everyone up, you can always go ahead and use an aura mastery.

I'm not sure I understand how healers can overcome infest in Phase 1 but not Phase 2 - particularly after all of the stuff you've gone through to prevent them from moving, be in range, etc. Perhaps your disc priest is running out of mana and feels he/she isn't able to shield everyone, as all of his/her shields get absorbed and he/she gains almost no mana back from Rapture in phase one? Make sure that the val'kyr aren't spamming their shadowy spell from the sky on people as well.

On the note of your disc priest being picked up, it's probably wise to have a divine hymn order and a divine guardian ready in case other healers are picked up too - as you'll be seeing a lot of infest debuffs at that point.

On the subject of val'kyrs, we assign five(ish) people to each val'kyr, I wouldn't recomend focusing one down and then switching to another. To me at least, it certainly sounds as if you're close to a kill, infest is not an overly difficult mechanic to overcome and hopefully you should have it done soon!
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:17 pm

Thark wrote:I could use a little help here...


I'm not a raid leader so others will probably be more helpful than me.

First and foremost, don't worry about Valks when you have people dying to infest. So focus on the infest problem.

I am not a healer but here are some tips based on 500+ attempts and about 17 kills of listening to people figure stuff out:

1. Make sure DPS aren't doing anything that causes them to take unnecessary damage. Usually, this just means not getting hit by Soul Shriek when collapsing for first valk. There is an infest up around that time and it can often spell certain death.
2. I know in our raid the healers are very tightly coordinated as to what groups they are responsible for. There isn't enough leverage to heal random targets you think need help. Trust the healer responsible for that player and worry about your own responsibilites.
3. Have a VERY clear plan for what to do when a healer is grabbed, especially if it's a shielding Priest. (Hymns and Aura Masteries mostly). Also make sure people use them at the right time. AM really needs to be up BEFORE Infest cast finishes, not after.
4. Make sure everyone knows where they are supposed to move to when spreading back out for defile. If caster dps and healers aren't going to predicable spots each time then they might be moving more often than is needed.
5. People with infest should be paying attention to themselves and using healthstone/healthpots, etc. when it's clear they haven't been topped off as quick as everyone else.

Really, just tighten things up a bit and it'll come together. You don't need to have a rigid strat, it just sounds like maybe your healers might need to ask more of your raid and to focus their resonsibilities to reduce overlap.

Guess that's about all I can offer not being a healer or raid leader. I know that one of our priests who heals this (and does shielding) is a REALLY good healer and he's told me more than once when I asked for his GS that "I can't right now". It's because he's spending all his GCD's putting up shields before infest hits. He's a rocking player and this is the only fight he's ever told me to go to hell :) To me this is proof that his role is very demanding and very important.

Good luck!
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