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[25H] The Lich King

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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:23 pm

Gaffer wrote:Do you even have to use a cooldown on them anymore? I wait until my Ardent Defender procs to even start a cooldown rotation. This week, it procced zero times.

Thats a stupid idea.
You might not be "wasting" CDs, but your wasting AD.
SR is easy enough to plan accordingly, and you have AD for when shit hits the fan.
And what have you gained on not using your CDs anyway? you are just stressing your healers out, waiting for a time when things have started to go bad to use them? but then you might not have AD up anymore and thats THE best "oh shit" ability there is.
While you obviously can survive without using any CDs at all now, thats just playing it stupid.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby towelliee » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:03 pm

I only tank Phase 1 in 25HM is there a good gear set to go with? High Armor? Just wondering what the norm has been
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Gaffer » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:00 am

Treck wrote:Thats a stupid idea.
You might not be "wasting" CDs, but your wasting AD.
SR is easy enough to plan accordingly, and you have AD for when shit hits the fan.
And what have you gained on not using your CDs anyway? you are just stressing your healers out, waiting for a time when things have started to go bad to use them? but then you might not have AD up anymore and thats THE best "oh shit" ability there is.
While you obviously can survive without using any CDs at all now, thats just playing it stupid.


It's not a matter of wasting cooldowns. We just don't have enough in raid that we're willing to use on Soul Reaper. Also, I'm not sure how you'd consider it wasting Ardent Defender. If we had cooldowns available for each and every Soul Reaper, I would never be at risk of proccing Ardent Defender. Going into the fight knowing it won't proc seems like more of a waste than using it's proc in a calculated manner. Things don't go bad at another time. Over the course of close to 300 progression attempts and another ~30 pulls since, I can count the number of times a tank has died to something that was not Soul Reaper on one hand.

Even at 30%, Soul Reaper is still dangerous enough that every single one has a chance to kill me. Depending on Ardent defender to proc for one of them gives us enough cooldowns to cover all of them.


towelliee wrote:I only tank Phase 1 in 25HM is there a good gear set to go with? High Armor? Just wondering what the norm has been


If you're only tanking HLK in phase 1, you're probably responsible for popping Vile Spirits in phase 3 (unless progressing guilds just kill them now). If you are popping Vile Spirits, the danger of dying to that is going to be higher than dying to a Phase 1 Lich King, especially if you have your cooldowns available to start using towards the end of the phase. I'd suggest wearing your 277 stamina pieces over your 264 armor pieces.
Last edited by Gaffer on Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:25 am

Gaffer wrote:It's not a matter of wasting cooldowns. We just don't have enough in raid that we're willing to use on Soul Reaper. Also, I'm not sure how you'd consider it wasting Ardent Defender. If we had cooldowns available for each and every Soul Reaper, I would never be at risk of proccing Ardent Defender. Going into the fight knowing it won't proc seems like more of a waste than using it's proc in a calculated manner. Things don't go bad at another time. Over the course of close to 300 progression attempts and another ~30 pulls since, I can count the number of times a tank has died to something that was not Soul Reaper on one hand.

Even at 30%, Soul Reaper is still dangerous enough that every single one has a chance to kill me. Depending on Ardent defender to proc for one of them gives us enough cooldowns to cover all of them.

Since you can pretty much cover 3/4 SRs, i dont beleave you have a raid without one CD each 2min to spare.
As long as the healers know my AD havnt procced yet, they also know that im not really much of a priority to heal (unless inc SR ofc)
And if your never dying from anything, why not use CDs? you know your not gonna need them later, so why not help the healers? CDs are there for a reason, if you dont need them to survive, then atleast use them to help healers during movement or other shit.
AD is a lifesaver 100% of the fight, id rather have thatone backup and use my CDs in a calculated manner instead of wasting the procc on something you easily could have covered with a small CD.
And what do you do if AD proccs on the first one? You say you dont have enough CDs to go around without AD so you got to cover them after that.
Not to mention once people start dying for whatever reasons, you will wish you never had AD on CD.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Gaffer » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:52 am

I'll begin by clarifying that I was mentioning my situation to illustrate that 30% makes everyone "fair and balanced." Just as there is no way you could depend on Ardent Defender like I do now at, say..15% and lower, there was no way you could depend on a 20% Barkskin and a 12% Enrage used separately back then.

1. Divine Protection gives me one out of every four Soul Reapers. I'm still using my Divine Guardian for our Infest rotation (even though I guess it's not necessary any more). I'm not sure where you're getting three from. Are you including Sindragosa's SR? I'm still using that; I just don't count it as a cooldown. I also do not include Divine Guardian
2. What else is there to heal in the encounter. The first time we defeated this encounter we used 5 healers (like most other guilds) with our Holy Priest spending 90% of his time DPSing. We now bring six. Our Paladins and Shaman rarely need to cast even one heal to a non-tank.
3. It's not like the healers do anything different. I'm taking damage, they spam heal me. Soul Reaper comes, they spam heal me...more? If our Val'anyr Holy Paladin is either picked up by a Val'kyr or targetted for Defile during a Soul Reaper, I'll Divine Protection since Ardent Defender has a much higher chance to proc.
4. I guess it's a calculated risk. We don't have enough "acceptable" cooldowns to cover 100% of Soul Reapers. Like I said earlier, the death count to a tank from standard damage or Infest + damage accounted for roughly 1% of our wipes, none of which have happened since 15%. I'm alright if we wipe 1% of the time to make sure we have cooldowns for every Soul Reaper.
5. It's not a problem. I'm only considering Divine Protection, Guardian Spirit, and Divine protection for cooldowns. Divine Guardian is difficult to use to cover the duration and also used in our Infest rotation. We had bad experiences with Hand of Sacrifice since doing so without bubbling can often cause death and we're saving our Paladin's Divine Shields for phase 3 Vile Spirits. So we're left with three cooldowns. 1 Divine Protection on a 2-minute timer and 2 Pain Suppressions on a 2.4m Cooldown. You can't line 3 timers with a 2-minute cooldown to cover all six Soul Reapers. BUT, if Ardent Defender procs on the first one, I Divine Protection the second, Pain Suppression the third, Pain Suppression the fourth. Ardent Defender is available for the fifth. If it procs again, I have Divine Protection for the sixth.

I'm not saying everyone should (or can) do it, but it works fine for us. I'm a big fan of holding cooldowns until Ardent Defender procs in other situations as well since it allows you to stack heavy cooldowns during the times that Ardent Defender isn't available where you can't cheat death. If Ardent Defender didn't proc, you obviously weren't going to die.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:16 am

towelliee wrote:I only tank Phase 1 in 25HM is there a good gear set to go with? High Armor? Just wondering what the norm has been


What are you going to be doing in P2 and P3? Gear towards that role. P1 isn't a problem.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Belloc » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:11 am

Gaffer wrote:
1. Divine Protection gives me one out of every four Soul Reapers. I'm still using my Divine Guardian for our Infest rotation (even though I guess it's not necessary any more). I'm not sure where you're getting three from. Are you including Sindragosa's SR? I'm still using that; I just don't count it as a cooldown. I also do not include Divine Guardian

Divine Guardian hasn't been necessary (or even desired?) for infest rotations since, what, 5-10%? Your disc priest is already down-ranking his shields, why not uprank and completely remove the need for Divine Guardian? Bam, Divine Guardian is now a cooldown. Hand of Salv is a cooldown.

If what you are doing is working for you... great! But you aren't aware of every cooldown available to you.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Meloree » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:49 am

Belloc wrote:Divine Guardian hasn't been necessary (or even desired?) for infest rotations since, what, 5-10%? Your disc priest is already down-ranking his shields, why not uprank and completely remove the need for Divine Guardian? Bam, Divine Guardian is now a cooldown. Hand of Salv is a cooldown.

If what you are doing is working for you... great! But you aren't aware of every cooldown available to you.


Dude, NCA got the US18 kill on H-LK, and I think May25th was still at 15% - might have been first week of 20%. I think Gaffer probably knows exactly what cooldowns his raid has available, and how desireable DG/AM is for infest rotations are various different buff levels.

I'm not aware of disc priests downranking their bubbles on H-LK-25, either. Even at 30%, it takes a pretty healthy bubble to kill Infest with no healing required.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:06 pm

Meloree wrote:I'm not aware of disc priests downranking their bubbles on H-LK-25, either. Even at 30%, it takes a pretty healthy bubble to kill Infest with no healing required.


I was wondering about that myself. But didn't want to comment at the time. Our priest/s started complaining about AM's around the 20 to 25% time frame. They asked us to stop using AM's completely for Phase 1 (but only P1). I did as requested. Something to do with going oom (I'm very ignorant of priest healing).
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Gaffer » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:19 pm

Belloc wrote:Divine Guardian hasn't been necessary (or even desired?) for infest rotations since, what, 5-10%? Your disc priest is already down-ranking his shields, why not uprank and completely remove the need for Divine Guardian? Bam, Divine Guardian is now a cooldown. Hand of Salv is a cooldown.


I definitely acknowledged that Divine Guardian was absolutely not necessary anymore. I honestly am not 100% sure it was necessary for our first kill (at 15%), but it definitely provided a benefit. Anyway, we do it because we did it while we progressed (when it was necessary) and we did it when we killed it. It's also not an issue for Rapture since we now run two Discipline Priests; mana isn't really a concern if they are only responsible for 10 Power Word: Shields.

Hand of Salvation is something I will (almost) never consider using as a cooldown. It's a trade-off that I have decided is not worth it for me.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Meloree » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:24 pm

inthedrops wrote:
Meloree wrote:I'm not aware of disc priests downranking their bubbles on H-LK-25, either. Even at 30%, it takes a pretty healthy bubble to kill Infest with no healing required.


I was wondering about that myself. But didn't want to comment at the time. Our priest/s started complaining about AM's around the 20 to 25% time frame. They asked us to stop using AM's completely for Phase 1 (but only P1). I did as requested. Something to do with going oom (I'm very ignorant of priest healing).


We never had all that many raid cooldowns in progression, so only ever used them reactively, when our disc-priest told us to. We have a whole ton available now, by comparison, and virtually never use them.

The OOM comes from a disc priest getting mana back when a bubble pops - on a small ICD. However, a longstanding bug is that if a bunch of bubbles pop at the same time, the priest will get Rapture procs from all of them, before the ICD can trigger. This was what made disc-priests such great raid healers at fights like Algalon, and it's very helpful at H-LK, where an infest generally means full mana. If, however, AM is used (or even DSac) a very small proportion of shields will break, and they get low on mana. Hence, on normal-mode LK, most disc-priests downrank, if they don't have 19 innervates in raid for their use, because then they mostly stop all the infests, but they stay full-mana. At H-LK, it's generally a non-issue, most shields will still break, unless you use major raid cooldowns.

On the other hand, if your disc priest is so foolish as to bubble the tanks on cooldown, his Rapture will be on ICD during most Infests, and he'll be OOM in a hurry. Generally our disc will only bubble tanks during the infest cast, or if there's an iffy Soul Reaper, but he has the least mana problems of any of the healers in the fight.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:18 pm

Thanks!
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:01 am

How many of you use a 3xHW strat versus a ST stun strat for the Valks? We've recently swapped from using warriors (PH) for the slows to using DKs (Desecration) for the slows, and that works a lot better, but we're still losing 1-2 of the Valks (usually with one at ~55% and one at ~65%). We usually run with 2 rogues, 1 prot pally, and 1-2 Rets (no HoJ reduction talent) so it's pretty hard to get a ST stun rotation out of that group.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:51 am

We are successful with Shockwave/Holy Wrath/Holy Wrath. Warrior and Paladin tanks.

Warrior tank gets the first stun. I tank LK full time in P2 and always get the second stun. Ret gets the third stun. If warrior is picked up then I get the first stun, ret goes next, then whoever. So basically I make it really easy to get the first stun handled even if the Warrior tank gets picked up.

I wish we did the single target stun thing but there were too many arguments about how to handle things when RNG reared its head. So we long ago decided to just go with what we affectionately dubbed the "Stunwad".
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Arianne » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:52 pm

What's the timing on that? We've been trying a 3 HW rotation and it seems like they're immune before they're halfway to the edge.
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