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[25H] The Lich King

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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:47 am

Sitar wrote:Warriors, as most tanks can handle soul reaper almost on their own, have him call when he needs an external CD for the next soul reaper and have your healers organise themselves around that.

For LK 25 HM, anyone can tank anything appart maybe druid on shamblers which is not optimal at all.

Take your 2 bests tanks, and go with them, good tanks on LK 25 HM is very very important, far more than their stuff or their stats.

You should call out for what CD you want and when, rather then just calling out that you need a CD and letting people organise in the middle of the fight between eachother, just creates confusion.
Say something like "ill need a Painsupp for the next one" about 10-15sec before SR hits. IF thatone happends to be on CD he has time to say so, and you ask for the next one instead.

As for tanking LK himself, i think DKs have the most CDs to cover the SRs, but Druids are really strong aswell.
A warrior (with safeguard) or a paladin OTing is far better than DK/Druid, not only do they have it 10times easier picking up the valks, but they have the stunns for valks (while a "MT" can stunn them aswell, OTs have much more mobility) and they also have extra CDs for the MT.

For the shambler add, any class can ofc do it, and what really just puts DKs/druids after warriors and paladins, are their lack of taunts. They will have trouble getting the small adds (unless you tricks them to him).
Their lack of stunns isnt that important. I havnt used my own stunns lately since its not really needed as long as you run with 2 hunters.
If your doing it with only one hunter (and you dont wanna put a rogue on it) you will stunns.
With 2 hunters, they shouldnt hit you enraged.
And you can just stand still and eat their frenzy while rotating CDs, while i do find kiting more fun + the fact that you dont take any damage at all, loosing the plague does happen.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:53 am

Treck wrote:You should call out for what CD you want and when, rather then just calling out that you need a CD and letting people organise in the middle of the fight between eachother, just creates confusion.
Say something like "ill need a Painsupp for the next one" about 10-15sec before SR hits. IF thatone happends to be on CD he has time to say so, and you ask for the next one instead.


I did not meant during the fight actually.

If healers organize themselves beforehand, tank just have to ask for a CD, healers knows who's turn it is to CD. If he asks for a pain sup but none is available, multiple healer CD could be thrown at the same time, or none at all.

To me it's better to let the healer class handle the CD rotation and just wait for the tank to ask for it.

In the end I guess the result is the same ;)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:06 am

Sitar wrote:I did not meant during the fight actually.

If healers organize themselves beforehand, tank just have to ask for a CD, healers knows who's turn it is to CD. If he asks for a pain sup but none is available, multiple healer CD could be thrown at the same time, or none at all.

To me it's better to let the healer class handle the CD rotation and just wait for the tank to ask for it.

In the end I guess the result is the same ;)

OFc some kind of rotation should be set up before you engage, but if you ask for a specific CD, and its on CD you should have lots of time left to ask for the next one.
If the rotation is "fixed" what happends if someone does use a CD on something else? then you will have to break the rotation, and coming back to one is harder than it has to be, in my own experience, that doesnt end well.
Your the tank, you should be the one concentrating about the CD. The healers have enough to handle as it is, and keeping track of whos time it is to CD is just giving them more work.
You as a tank on the other hand doesnt have much to focus on, and have a much easier time dealing with the
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:02 am

Actually I'm a healer, I guess it's a matter of raid preference and healer synergy. We're very used to it, it just takes 3 words on vent "<name> I'll take it" or "<name> on CD" for the other healers to understand. I find it heavier on the tank to be honest, but I guess with a good raid CD addon, it's not difficult either.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Kihra » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:01 am

I ended up writing an add-on for Soul Reaper that could be fed a cooldown priority list, and it would just whisper each person (and spam a raid warning) when it was that person's turn to pop a cooldown. The add-on knows when people get picked up by Valks and tracks when everyone in the raid uses their CDs, so it always knows what the strongest available CD is and asks for it.

I can make it available upon request, although you do still have to hand-edit the LUA file in order to set up the CD map the way you want.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:59 am

Mah that's quite excessive, we always worked it with cooldown alternating between LK tank and me. Well, that works if the LK tank is a druid though.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:13 am

Interesting notes about cooldowns, I mean that's all the WotlK expansion is for tanks in a sense. I always work closely with the healers with figuring out cooldowns, but I manage them on my own. I tank LK throughout all phases. P2 is the only phase where you want a strategy. P3 is easily handled in an ad-hoc manner.

For P2 I have a VERY hard coded plan, with a couple outs for when things go wrong:

1. Shield Wall
2. GS + AD
3. A very well timed DG
4. Safeguard + Sindy Trinket
5. Shield Wall
6. Safeguard + Sindy Trinket
7. DG

I think usually we're in P3 by now but GS would be available again too.

Everything is very deliberate and was micro-tuned as we progressed into P2.

I have glyphed salv available at all times, such as if AD procs before the second soul reaper, or I use DG too early because I didn't notice a defile or infest was coming right before the soul reaper.

The fact that GS is second is also important. It's the only time that the priest has time in between bubbling the raid to use a global on me. He told me he can't do it on the third SR.

The other tank Safeguards me but he's also the first stun, so the timing on those works well for him too. The reason I save the trinket for this is to help prevent the instagib scenarios. I pop trinket about 3 seconds before SR debuff gets applied. As soon as debuff is on me, I get safeguarded (not *just* before like some guilds probably do). It just makes things easier to execute for us doing it this way, and I haven't had a single instagib death since using this combination. Note that without the trinket, I would get instagibbed too much (guessing 1 out of every 15 SR's?)

The nice thing about this strat is that the healers don't need to think about which tank is tanking, or about tank cooldowns, and the other tank only has a couple of times where he needs to worry. I always warn the priest or warrior when their cooldown is coming. But failing so many times in P2 due to other things they pretty much have it memorized too :)

I'll be interesting to see how they handle cooldowns when our druid takes my place. I would imagine P2 might be a little different. It will also be interesting to see it without a warrior. I'd think we would end up switching to a tank swap strat.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Meloree » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:21 am

inthedrops wrote:I'll be interesting to see how they handle cooldowns when our druid takes my place. I would imagine P2 might be a little different. It will also be interesting to see it without a warrior. I'd think we would end up switching to a tank swap strat.


A druid? At 30%?

1. Barkskin
2. Enrage
3. Barkskin
4. Enrage
5. Barkskin
6. Enrage

Druids are fair and balanced.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby inthedrops » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:39 am

Meloree wrote:
inthedrops wrote:I'll be interesting to see how they handle cooldowns when our druid takes my place. I would imagine P2 might be a little different. It will also be interesting to see it without a warrior. I'd think we would end up switching to a tank swap strat.


A druid? At 30%?

1. Barkskin
2. Enrage
3. Barkskin
4. Enrage
5. Barkskin
6. Enrage

Druids are fair and balanced.


Sounds easier :) I don't know anything about druids! We haven't had a druid tanking stuff in ages.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:38 pm

Meloree wrote:A druid? At 30%?

1. Barkskin
2. Enrage
3. Barkskin
4. Enrage
5. Barkskin
6. Enrage

Druids are fair and balanced.

I havnt tanked with a real druid for ages tbh.
But all i remember in paragons LK firstkill was their druidtank dropping 4-5 times :P
1min 20% barkskin is awesome, and i love were getting that in cata, however unlike shieldwall, you cant rely to much on it.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Meloree » Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:34 am

Treck wrote:I havnt tanked with a real druid for ages tbh.
But all i remember in paragons LK firstkill was their druidtank dropping 4-5 times :P
1min 20% barkskin is awesome, and i love were getting that in cata, however unlike shieldwall, you cant rely to much on it.


At 30%? Our druid has 43k armor and 95k hp at 30%. You can rely on Barkskin or Enrage at LK.

Druids are fair and balanced.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby tinalt » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:50 pm

I've got a question for the more experienced LK tanks here. We usually have a DK tank all the ghouls and shamblings in Ph1 (death and decay makes it easy mode), and whatever tank is available tank LK. Today I was asked to tank the shamblings/ghouls and it wasn't very pretty. I picked up the shamblings fine, but the ghouls were harder to get. Most stayed in melee, but a few went after casters.

How do you pick up the ghouls? I can't run up to LK and lay down a consecrate because of the shamblings. do you toss your shield? if so, is it available each time the ghouls spawn? Do you pick up the ghouls, or do you let the LK tank and melee deal with them?

I thought I saw a post here about having rogues using tricks and fan, but we don't have any reliable rogues in our group.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby d503 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:46 am

tinalt wrote:I've got a question for the more experienced LK tanks here. We usually have a DK tank all the ghouls and shamblings in Ph1 (death and decay makes it easy mode), and whatever tank is available tank LK. Today I was asked to tank the shamblings/ghouls and it wasn't very pretty. I picked up the shamblings fine, but the ghouls were harder to get. Most stayed in melee, but a few went after casters.

How do you pick up the ghouls? I can't run up to LK and lay down a consecrate because of the shamblings. do you toss your shield? if so, is it available each time the ghouls spawn? Do you pick up the ghouls, or do you let the LK tank and melee deal with them?

I thought I saw a post here about having rogues using tricks and fan, but we don't have any reliable rogues in our group.


I have 2x Rogues FOK them over to me. It's really the only elegant solution. Even if you AS'd them, the slow would end up getting them hit by other AOE and back in the pile.

Your melee also should be semi-diligent about holding WW/DS/etc when the drudge ghoul cast begins...but that's...difficult ;)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:02 am

tinalt wrote:We usually have a DK tank all the ghouls and shamblings in Ph1 (death and decay makes it easy mode), and whatever tank is available tank LK.

No way DnD is THAT strong, sure it lands on the ghouls, but it is not going to keep aggro on the ghouls untill they reach you if you have any kind of cleave meele, one WW/DS and DnD wont be holding aggro anymore.


tinalt wrote:Today I was asked to tank the shamblings/ghouls and it wasn't very pretty. I picked up the shamblings fine, but the ghouls were harder to get. Most stayed in melee, but a few went after casters.

I really dont get how they can go after casters, do you have 0 furywarrs/retripallys?
Sure starfall and living bomb does some damage but ive never seen a ghoul run off to casters in 25man.


tinalt wrote:How do you pick up the ghouls? I can't run up to LK and lay down a consecrate because of the shamblings. do you toss your shield? if so, is it available each time the ghouls spawn? Do you pick up the ghouls, or do you let the LK tank and melee deal with them?

You got 2 taunts, use them.
Its also far from nessesary getting every single ghoul, take as many as you can, let the rest stay on the meele/tank.
Most of the time i have to use both taunts on each mob in order to get them to me.
I use the first taunt, it starts running towards me, when its almost out of meele, someone snaps back aggro and i use the other taunt, after that they are usually close enough for a judgement and after that i got them.
I can pretty much always get the first 3 on me since im standing on LK at that point, after that most of the time i only get 2/3 out, but its enough.
Make sure that if your MT has a ghoul you want, you cant use RD to get them off him obviously, but its also not really any harm for him tanking it so you can let him.
AS is up for each spawn, however it slows them so that leaves the ghouls in meele for longer, and will just mean that meele have more time building threat on them before they reach you.
I use AS after both taunts to keep threat on a ghoul who is already running towards me, thats pretty much it (same as judgement, just reaches further)

tinalt wrote:I thought I saw a post here about having rogues using tricks and fan, but we don't have any reliable rogues in our group.

Rogues using tricks works, but ive had cases where i got 3 rogues tricksing me, and none of the adds came towards me, 3xrogue tricks is not more threat than a single warrior can put out on them, so i have to taunt them anyway so theres really just no point in doing so.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Gaffer » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:01 pm

Meloree wrote:At 30%? Our druid has 43k armor and 95k hp at 30%. You can rely on Barkskin or Enrage at LK.

Druids are fair and balanced.


Do you even have to use a cooldown on them anymore? I wait until my Ardent Defender procs to even start a cooldown rotation. This week, it procced zero times.

Paladins are fair and balanced.

I mention it because, for the first 15-20%, Druids needed to pair their Barkskin with Enrage for ~30% damage reduction. Of course, it was still ridiculous since they could handle half of them by themsleves.

tinalt wrote:How do you pick up the ghouls? I can't run up to LK and lay down a consecrate because of the shamblings. do you toss your shield? if so, is it available each time the ghouls spawn? Do you pick up the ghouls, or do you let the LK tank and melee deal with them?


At one point during progression, I was tanking adds with a Druid on Lich King. He would get ~80% of the aggro on Ghouls. If he kept The Lich King on Taunt DR, you can freely Righteous Defense off him and pick up the adds easily. Of course, you only really need to get a few over to you to kill the Horrors and can let the melee kill the rest.
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