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[25H] The Lich King

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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:15 am

How is it in no way necessary when Infest ticks for 18k and disc priest absorbs around 10k ? Looking at my wol, resists are around 3k on average, with AM. That leave 5k to heal on the whole raid, I feel like that's a lot, even more without AM.

Any of you could provide a WoL where you don't use AM for infest ?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Belloc » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:35 am

Sitar wrote:How is it in no way necessary when Infest ticks for 18k and disc priest absorbs around 10k ? Looking at my wol, resists are around 3k on average, with AM. That leave 5k to heal on the whole raid, I feel like that's a lot, even more without AM.

Any of you could provide a WoL where you don't use AM for infest ?

Are you considering that disc priests shields are buffed by the icecrown buff?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:50 am

Well yes, I'm just looking at the wol of my raids. Disc shields absorbs 11k on average.

18k - 11k - 2k = 5k on the whole raid. That seems quite a lot to me to handle, especially during phase 3.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Meloree » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:19 am

Sitar wrote:How is it in no way necessary when Infest ticks for 18k and disc priest absorbs around 10k ? Looking at my wol, resists are around 3k on average, with AM. That leave 5k to heal on the whole raid, I feel like that's a lot, even more without AM.

Any of you could provide a WoL where you don't use AM for infest ?


In practice, with 5 healers, you have the following situation at infest: Your disc priest has shields on a good chunk of the raid, he (or she) channels a prayer of healing and his group is fully topped off. Your other two raid healers (holy priest and resto shaman, for us) will dump out their AoE heals and instantly take care of another 8 people - and the next CH lands less than 2 seconds later for another 3 people. Your tank healers (resto druid and holy paladin, for us) will take care of the tanks naturally, and most of the time can snipe off another heal or two. Most of the time, with average resist rates, that's everyone in the raid - anyone who resists at ~4k (20% resist, quite likely with 130 Shadow Resist) is over 90% and doesn't have infest, and enough AoE healing has happenned to top up everyone else. With extremely bad luck, you have one or two left over, easily taken care of by a couple of spot heals. Often incidental hots, JoL, Divine Storm, imp LotP, Blood Presence, etc, are enough to tick people back over 90% before the infest can tick anyway, especially on melee.

Anyway, regarding WoL, simply ask and ye shall receive: From our first kill (20%) Cooldowns used only reactively - when a bad healer combination was picked up. I linked it from our progression kill because that seemed most appropriate to prove out the advice.

EDIT: Responding to the 2nd post.
Sitar wrote:Well yes, I'm just looking at the wol of my raids. Disc shields absorbs 11k on average.

18k - 11k - 2k = 5k on the whole raid. That seems quite a lot to me to handle, especially during phase 3.


Remember, though, that at present buff levels, most DPS are pushing 40k health raidbuffed. That means they can be 4k health below topped off and Infest is still removed. Therefore, 18k - 11k - 2k (minimum resist) leaves 5k damage taken, but only 1k to be healed for Infest to go away.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:02 am

Very good point about the health pool. Thanks for the link and the input :-)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Anthia » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:05 am

Stuns:

We've finally gotten into this fight and reached around 55% last night, however, our valk phases always seemed messy and the stuns we used didn't seem to stop them for the necessary amount of time.

At first we were doing Shockwave -> Holy Wrath -> Holy Wrath however we quickly found out that it isn't enough for heroic. We tried going shockwave -> Rogue stuns at 5 points but never got enough practice to see if it worked properly or not. Any ideas on what is the most efficient stun rotation?

Our raid comp (stuns wise) is: Prot warrior, 1 Ret pally, 2 holy pallies, 3 rogues (generally), 1 Feral.

Thanks in advance for any advice =)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Argali » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:13 am

You're running into the stun DR too early.

Shockwave into HW into HW is 4+1.5+0.75=6.25s.

You need to add in some long duration single target stuns, and most boss mods will automatically mark each val'kyr, so you can assign a stunner to each mark.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby gomashon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:22 am

holy paladins can spec to reduce HoJ CD and use it once per Valkery wave.
prot warrior can concussive blow on every wave as well.
feral bear (bash) and ret paladins (HoJ) can do their stun every 2 Valkery waves (one yes, one no) - two of these classes can thus rotate their stun (for example: wave 1 ret stuns, wave 2 bear stuns, repeat).
Shockwave can be used every wave.
mutilate rogue can do a 4-5 cp kindey shot very fast (will lose some dps).
combat rogues can do it also but slower and lose more dps.
Cats can 5cp main but from what i understand also not recommended (they can still shift to bear to bash).
All rogues can emergency vanish -> cheapshot for an extra stun off normal "regular" diminished returns.

It is best to use stuns that do not require much ramp up time early. For example requiring 5 sinister strikes for kindey shot is bad as the first stun.

You want to do your longest stuns first, since DR will effect future stuns. In other words, only one holy wrath and do it last.

I would say a good stun assignment would be each holy pala stuns one each and the prot warrior stuns the last. This can be done on every wave. Follow that initial stun with a shockwave and then a holy wrath.
Figure out what works best for your raid. Player skill comes into question here also.

You also want to prepare in advance backup stunning assignments, in case your stunner is picked up himself and cannot stun. Hopefully this is something that can be done without everyone yelling on vent and total chaos. You might need more than a single backup (what if 2 stunners are picked...)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:08 am

Quick question about Val'Kyr DPS.

How do you assign your DPS to the valkyrs ? split up ? all on one with passive AOE (+shadow +warlock) to try to burst one quickly ?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby ekhie » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:23 am

I'd probably put 4 good single-target DPS per Valkyr and assign spriests/locks/warriors to cleave/AOE them all.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby gomashon » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:28 am

While not all debuffs are worth applying, some will be applied, so you could try to split your dps in such a way to maximize your dps via class synergies.
Example: ret paladins dps different valkerys = Heart on the crusader is up on more targets
Its small difference but hey whatever helps.

Also think what sort of slowing effects do you use, and how it is distributed between the valkerys.

finally, some people do more than others. I would probably put weaker dpsers on the first one, as everyone nukes it when its the only one active. If some specific valkery is consistently a problem, swap your better dpsers to it.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Arincia » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:55 pm

Sorry if I'm necro posting but my guild having just started 25 man HM (already have 5 easy HMs down) and me and my fellow tanks are trying to work out if there's any case on a HM boss that a partical tank class is so much superior/inferior to use/not use it. I had read/heard that LK was one in which a warrior cannot tank it. For reference the tanks are prot paladin (me) a bear and prot warrior. For basic numbers on tanks:

Bear 75ish k Health 41k armor raid buffed (4 peice T10 264)
Warrior 72kish Health 35kish(?32k unbuffed) armor raid buffed (4 piece T10 264)
Paladin 72k Health 36k armor or 68-73k/40k armor raid buffed (UO on armor set) (no 2/4 piece T10 264)

(btw warrior isn't the most progression tank choices imo due to some gear/enchanting choices etc but I'm trying to not mister duche bag etc and guild has a policy of being fair to members)
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby pfunkmort » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:21 am

warriors shouldn't tank anything *pauses, turns and smiles for the camera*

no.

TBH, my guild's tank setup is identical to that (warr, paly drood) and there's no issue with any of them tanking anything, that I've seen, strictly from a tank balance issue (except maybe keleseth).

For HLK, Pallies have lololakfgaissammichcheatdeath for frenzied adds in P1, and an easier time dealing with soul reaper (than a warrior)...and they have an immunity for popping viles in p3, a raid wall, büffs and an aura.

warriors can dispel an enrage, have a lot of stuns and control for frenzy (external CDs are easy enough to call for - we have a priest who instinctively puts wings on whoever's add tanking p1 at a frenzy)...and have comparable EH, CDs, and utility for dealing with the rest of the encounter (no raidwall :((((((((((((((((()

druids can tap out above 100k hp @30% without a CD *dramatic silence*. eff them in the a.

I think a lot of guilds that did this on progression had a druid MT for P1, and SOMETHING for an OT (probably mostly a pally because "progression" means "wiping a lot" and getting past p1 was probably a lot easier with AD for frenzies). With 30%, the teh levels that were sort of brainstormed around for downing this are no longer relevant. The fight has become almost entirely about proper execution, and not really about any class advantage. I, as a paladin, am today more capable of tanking LK heroic than a druid was at 5-10%. And so if I were a more competent tank than some paste eater druid, I could probably fill any tank role in there, and come out okay. You no longer need to AM every infest - likewise, you no longer need the strict CD map that people were probably using at lower buff levels (although you still need to work to stay alive).

hope that's the answer you were looking for.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Arincia » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:29 am

it certainly helps put me more at ease and means it can be more fun and what not working out our tank swaps. I just feel that our warrior could some more to improve there survival as when were working on 25 normal (i was dpsing as os for almost all of LK 25 attempts until one day when it was me and druid for tanking and we got it down). It definitely seems at least to me that our warrior was getting gibbed 1/2 the time on phase 1 normal. I see some areas my fellows tanks could improve there survival but as you know "you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink". (aka i could ask them why/try to educate but i'm trying to not end up being the pushy player telling people you should/have to be playing this way etc) Also if you could help me id like to learn more about how to effectively chain CDs better. (hey you can always improve and if tank death is one less thing to worry about then i'm all for it).
I mean i saw a chain of:
DG+Salv glyph>DP>2 externals to have a solo tank on soul reapers.
I'm wondering if it might be better to go DG >Salv glyph>DP>1 external?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Sitar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:47 am

Warriors, as most tanks can handle soul reaper almost on their own, have him call when he needs an external CD for the next soul reaper and have your healers organise themselves around that.

For LK 25 HM, anyone can tank anything appart maybe druid on shamblers which is not optimal at all.

Take your 2 bests tanks, and go with them, good tanks on LK 25 HM is very very important, far more than their stuff or their stats.
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