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[25H] The Lich King

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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:04 pm

Rojhaz wrote:
Joanadark wrote:
-You will need several raid-wide defensive cooldowns to rotate for Infest.
Specifically, this means you need enough Aura Masteries and Divine Sacs in the raid to have at least one for every infest. If you don't, people will die to infest. It simply hits that hard on heroic. Another advantage of bringing 5 paladins in your raid comp is that you have 5 shadow aura masteries and 3 dsacs. That's pretty amazingly helpful for getting past infest with basically only a holy priest, a disc priest, and a resto shaman able to heal it.

This is absolutely destroying our attempts. So frustrating to get near raid time and find out we don't have enough raid cooldowns online and/or 'proper' healers.


On the other hand, it is the biggest aspect of the encounter that will be trivialized by the stacking % buff scaling.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:22 pm

Xequecal wrote:Was Paladin dominance really that predictable? As far as I can remember, they had all those things going into Sunwell and they were the worst class in the game at that point.


There were no raid-wide defensive cooldowns in BC. Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice did not exist until Wrath, and even Heroism (which is just as much a defensive cooldown as an offensive one) was party only.
And ever since Divine Sac and Aura Mastery were implemented they've been pretty much required tools for bleeding edge progression, and have no alternatives short of heroism. Raid-cooldowns was probably intended as the Paladin niche as compensation for the fact that they can't raid heal, just as Priests have been the most versatile raid healer but provide single-target defensive cooldowns.
The two raid cooldowns have always been overpowered to the point of being required in pre-nerf bleeding edge content. You either brought two Aura Masteries to Yog 0, or your entire raid ate an insurmountable silence effect. In Firefighter, you brought multiple Divine Sacs or your raid fell over in phase 2. These are just two examples out of many.
If you do a search of the term Aura Mastery on these boards, you will find multiple threads discussing how overpowered that ability has been throughout wrath.

The only thing different about H LK is that the big raid-threatening mechanic is a periodic one big hit on a cooldown, and stacking enough raid-defense cooldowns to mitigate it every time it occurs should be an obvious thing for an experienced raid team. Unfortunately for raid comp purposes, the only options for raid cooldowns come from paladins, the ability occurs frequently enough that you need an unusual quantity of them in order to cooldown every time, and you cannot afford the alternative of simply bringing more healers in exchange for not cooldowning it because the DPS requirements of the encounter at this time are too rigid. The Paragon strat already plays the RNG game that the Holy Priest won't be in the hands of a valk when an infest goes out.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Rojhaz » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:45 am

Joanadark wrote:
On the other hand, it is the biggest aspect of the encounter that will be trivialized by the stacking % buff scaling.

Yea but that's stupid. :?
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:56 pm

<For the Horde> raid comp for easy reference:

(5 Healers)
Holy Paladin x2
Disc Priest
Holy Priest
Resto Shaman

(9 Ranged DPS)
Fire Mage
Shadow Priest x2
Affliction Warlock x2
Demonology Warlock
Balance Druid
Marksman Hunter
Beast Mastery Hunter


(9 melee DPS)
Fury Warrior x2
Frost DK x2
Unholy DK
Combat Rogue x2
Ret Paladin
Feral Cat Druid

(2 tanks)
Prot Paladin
Feral Tank Druid

A couple notes:
1. The BM hunter. There is no group utility benefit in this raid comp to bringing a BM hunter over a marks hunter, meaning that the hunter chose BM purely for damage reasons. While I suppose this might be viable with the extension of the ICC 10% buff to pet damage, it still puts his output at the second lowest DPSer in the whole raid group, over 800k damage behind the marks hunter.
2. The Fire Mage. Fire would presumably be a better choice for the encounter than arcane because of the ability to living bomb all 3 valks, and because arcane would have severe mana issues over the 15 minute long fight.
Last edited by Joanadark on Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:28 pm

http://www.paragon-wow.com/index.php?p=article&id=11

These are the tactics that Paragon used on their first Lich King kill 26.3.2010. That week we had the 5% increased healing/health/damage buff active. Patch 3.3.3 had come out on previous Wednesday. The patch provided dps buffs to some classes (like frost death knight and moonkin) as well as it buffed priest shields and gave the 5% damage bonus to pets.


Basic stats on the encounter:
Lich King: 103,9M hitpoints (dies at 10%)
Val’kyr Shadowguards: 3M hitpoints
Raging Spirits: 4,1M hitpoints
Vile Spirits: (blew these up)

The fight has 3 different phases and 2 transition phases + Frostmourne room in the last phase.

PHASE 1

On our kill we had 2 shambling horrors spawning. The shamblers and some of the ghouls were tanked by a protection paladin, Lazeil. We had Sejta, a feral druid tanking the Lich King and the rest of the ghouls.

SHAMBLERS, GHOULS, AND THE DISEASE:
We brought the disease to Lazeil’s mob pile and he made sure the disease would go to the shamblers. When needed, Lazeil taunted more ghouls off Sejta to stack the disease. A protection paladin works perfect for shamblers, as they have ardent defender as an ‘oh-shit’ ability as well as good stuns. When Lazeil was tanking two shamblers, he stunned them right after they had casted Enrage. He got stun help from a retribution paladin. When needed, he called for a Pain Suppression from our disc priest. Enrage was removed from the mobs by two hunters. When the mobs go below 20% they gain Frenzy and start hitting like mad. It’s important to have them dying as fast as possible when they start going low.

TRANSITION PHASE 1
On the transition phase we spread out as well as possible; melee did two piles to ease up the healing. We always brought the spawning raging spirits to the tank (it's important to face the tank to get the spirit spawn in a good position and it's easier for the tank to grab it). Our druid tank Sejta turned the raging spirits facing the center, so that they could be moved straight towards the Phase 2 spot when the val'kyr phase started. We had two hunters shooting the frost orbs and some ranged guys assisting with instants when needed. Our rogues and hunters used at least 1 tricks/misdirect per spirit, as the threat on these mobs needed to be really good.

PHASE 2 – VAL’KYRS

POSITIONS
In the second phase we had our whole raid standing on top of our marked moonkin - Lappé. We started by moving the boss and the remaining raging spirit to our raid position 1. We usually had the last raging spirit at 5-10% when the first wave of val'kyrs spawned. It is absolutely crucial to have the whole raid on the exactly same spot to get the val'kyrs going exactly to the same direction after they have grabbed their targets. The spot also has to be far enough from the edges to have the maximum amount of time to dps the mobs down to 50%.

VAL’KYR STUNS
We had our tank Lazeil and both our holy paladins Ilonie and Diamondtear on their specific raid marks to use Hammer of Justice on the val'kyrs to stun them. It was very important to get all the stuns in as fast as possible to keep the mobs together for cleaves. If one of the paladins got the val’kyr we had 2 retribution paladins to take their place. After the 6 seconds stun was over, two paladins used Holy Wrath back to back. Additionally we had three rogues to use Cheap Shots on the mobs if they needed more stuns. The mobs were slowed by unholy death knight's Desecration, rogue's crippling poisons, and our moonkin's Typhoon.

VAL’KYR TANKING
As the val’kyrs get dps’d down to 50% they drop the player they were carrying and fly up in the air and start shooting. They have aggro and we used a retribution paladin with righteous fury on to pull aggro from the val’kyrs. When they flew up our protection paladin taunted them off the retribution paladin to soak the damage they did. If the val’kyrs were allowed to shoot around freely they would have destroyed all the discipline priest shields which would have made infest healing impossible.

DEFILES
We always tried to get the defiles as far away from the throne (and the raid) as possible. Val’kyrs and the defile have different timers so sometimes there is a lot of time before the next defile after the val’kyrs, sometimes there is only two seconds in between.
When val’kyrs came just before the defile, our ranged dps and healers waited for all three of them to land, and after that immediately took a few steps away from the raid to be able to run the defile far enough from the raid. The melee dps'd the val'kyrs from the opposite side of the throne. If a melee got the defile, he ran away from the group and the rest of the melee simply moved to the throne side of the mobs.

Naturally we kept the Lich King on top of val'kyrs all the time to get all possible cleaves on him. When we knew the defile would come a lot before val'kyrs, we had our raid standing still where they had stopped after killing the val'kyrs, and doing max dps until the defile came. The defile was taken far away from our next raid spot and everyone ran to the spot as fast as possible to be grouped for the next val'kyrs.

INFEST HEALING
We had one discipline priest, Jhazrun, shielding 20 raid targets for infest. We had death knights using anti-magic shells and warlocks using their shadow wards (if they didn't get shielded) to minimize the healing needed on them. Our 5 paladins had an aura mastery rotation which covered up 5/6 of all infests. When our disc priest got grabbed by a val'kyr, or we knew there wouldn't be an aura mastery, we had three priests backing the healing up with Divine Hymns.

TRANSITION PHASE 1
Second transition phase is just like the first, just that there are more frost orbs spawning, as well as one extra raging spirit (4 altogether).

PHASE 3
When we entered the last phase, the whole raid took a few steps over the edge to the safe side and dps'd the spirits like mad before the first soul harvest. Lazeil moved the Lich King a few steps away from the middle, to the opposite direction from the raid. During the soul harvest the whole raid is stunned and takes damage, so everyone should be at least over 60% hitpoints to avoid deaths.

FROSTMOURNE ROOM
In the Frostmourne room we instantly had the whole raid gathering on top of our marked death knight, Synti, in the middle of the room. He checked out where there were very few bombs and took the whole raid there. There are bombs spawning everywhere in the room, but most spawn on top of players. By stacking everyone in the same pile, we were able to move to a clear area, and drag a line of falling bombs behind us. The trick is to make sure the raid doesn't move too fast, so that healers can top the raid and casters can kill the spirits. Starfall is super good to clear the room of spirits, especially when you stand in the middle before picking a direction to run as a group. Never let a spirit reach the group and blow up - never let anyone die, as the boss grows in size and gains stacks as Frostmourne gets the player’s soul.
After getting back from first Frostmourne room the Lich King casts defile immediately. We just moved away from everyone. After that, everyone but hunters and priests stacked instantly behind the raging spirits which were tanked next to the edge. Lich King summons vile spirits on the other side of the room and then he is brought to the raging spirit pile.
We had a hunter placing a trap a bit in front of the group, which the Lich King triggered when he was brought to the raid. We used our retribution paladin to bubble and blow up all the first wave or vile spirits at the trap as they flew towards the raid. It is crucial to have the whole raid packed up as good as possible to have all the spirits coming to one spot. When we get the defile to the group, the defile guy instantly takes it behind the raid while everyone else takes a few steps towards to boss and the tank. If the Lich King tank gets the defile he moves away from the raid and brings the boss back later. If someone stands behind the group on the gray No Go Zone, the spirits won't come low enough and the soaker won't be able to blow them, and they will wipe the raid.

We had our hunters and priests on the sides of the room and they used their Fade and Feign Death when the spirits activated (note: not spawned) to make sure they all flew towards the boss. This gave them the opportunity to stand still and do max dps/channel heals. After the first spirit wave was soaked, we usually had the raging spirits dead and we were able to go all out on the boss. We used our first bloodlust in the beginning of phase 1 and this was the spot where we used our second lust. The boss summoned the next wave of spirits and we moved him a bit towards the middle while ranged stood still and nuked before the second Harvest Soul.

After we got up from the Frostmourne room we used our protection paladin to soak the next spirit waves. The idea is to go move the raid across the room and soak the spirits on the trap in front of the raid.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:32 pm

VAL’KYR TANKING
As the val’kyrs get dps’d down to 50% they drop the player they were carrying and fly up in the air and start shooting. They have aggro and we used a retribution paladin with righteous fury on to pull aggro from the val’kyrs. When they flew up our protection paladin taunted them off the retribution paladin to soak the damage they did. If the val’kyrs were allowed to shoot around freely they would have destroyed all the discipline priest shields which would have made infest healing impossible.


This part is really the only thing in the article that was a surprise. Otherwise it was pretty much just as predicted in the sacred texts.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:54 pm

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/yfovhycy ... 881&e=4022

For the Horde's parse for their kill, if you're the kind of person who looks at parses.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Boèndal » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:48 am

Joanadark wrote:1. The BM hunter. There is no group utility benefit in this raid comp to bringing a BM hunter over a marks hunter, meaning that the hunter chose BM purely for damage reasons. While I suppose this might be viable with the extension of the ICC 10% buff to pet damage, it still puts his output at the second lowest DPSer in the whole raid group, over 800k damage behind the marks hunter.


The BM Hunter seems to be the one doing the armor debuff via his Jormungar Worm Pet. Perhaps their maths have shown that this would be the least dps loss compared to rogues and warriors.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:25 am

That actually makes a lot of sense
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Kihra » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:17 pm

Joanadark wrote:From that point on, all plagues will simply be run away from the raid, and cleansed off so they dissipate harmlessly. Doing badly at cleansing or running out will result in the LK gaining lots of stacks and start threatening to kill your main tank.


We've been bringing all the plagues to the shamblers/ghouls without having any issue. Now admittedly there's a 10% buff in effect now, so maybe with no buff you'd have to worry about this. Paragon ran all plagues to the shamblers/ghouls as well in their video (which was with a 5% buff) and did just fine. I don't think you need to run subsequent plagues away from the raid.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:13 pm

Kihra wrote:
Joanadark wrote:From that point on, all plagues will simply be run away from the raid, and cleansed off so they dissipate harmlessly. Doing badly at cleansing or running out will result in the LK gaining lots of stacks and start threatening to kill your main tank.


We've been bringing all the plagues to the shamblers/ghouls without having any issue. Now admittedly there's a 10% buff in effect now, so maybe with no buff you'd have to worry about this. Paragon ran all plagues to the shamblers/ghouls as well in their video (which was with a 5% buff) and did just fine. I don't think you need to run subsequent plagues away from the raid.


I prolly doesn't really matter.
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Joanadark » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:03 pm

Ensidia's raid comp:

Healers: 2 Discipline Priests, 1 Restoration Shaman, 2 Holy Paladins

Tanks: 1 Protection Paladin, 1 Protection Warrior

Damage: 1 Unholy DK, 1 Combat Rogue, 2 Assassination Rogues, 2 Feral Druids, 1 Enhancement Shaman, 1 Retribution Paladin, 2 Shadow Priests, 2 Affliction Warlocks, 1 Demonology Warlock, 2 Arcane Mages, 2 Marksman Hunters, 1 Elemental Shaman
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Felyndiia » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:39 pm

Boèndal wrote:
Joanadark wrote:1. The BM hunter. There is no group utility benefit in this raid comp to bringing a BM hunter over a marks hunter, meaning that the hunter chose BM purely for damage reasons. While I suppose this might be viable with the extension of the ICC 10% buff to pet damage, it still puts his output at the second lowest DPSer in the whole raid group, over 800k damage behind the marks hunter.


The BM Hunter seems to be the one doing the armor debuff via his Jormungar Worm Pet. Perhaps their maths have shown that this would be the least dps loss compared to rogues and warriors.


That's correct :D
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Twosies » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:27 pm

Felyndiia wrote:That's correct :D


Without giving too much away, were your hunters just incredibly on the ball when it came to Enrages because you don't seem to stun the Horrors at all
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Re: [25H] The Lich King

Postby Felyndiia » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:59 am

I think a sentence like "Ok hunter trials, if you want to be promoted you have to be fast!" is a quite good motivation (fth kicked 3 hunters during hardmode progression).

I used stuns only in those cases:
1. A holy paladin cried for a cd because of movement.
2. The next hit of the add would kill me.
3. The add goes frenzy.
4. Aoe stun to fixate the position of an diseased ghul in a big add.

Tank deaths were only at the beginning of progession an issue, at the end we only wiped because of an add stucked in frenzy. Chain cooldowns are the key for tanking two adds (don't forget the 4 piece t10 bonus).
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