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[25H] Blood Princes

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[25H] Blood Princes

Postby Meloree » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:45 am

This is a bit of a tend, but this hardmode isn't particularily demanding either.

Two things will kill you here: Empowered Shock Vortex, and Empowered Flame Sphere.

The change from normal mode is a debuff called Shadow Prison. Essentially, whenever you move, the debuff stack increases, and it deals damage based on the stack size - only when you're moving. It's based on time spent moving, not distance, so sprint/rocket boots/intervene/charge type abilities are great, so is Pursuit of Justice. Shadow Prison resets after 10 seconds of stillness. Jumping increases the stack size. Yes, this is a nerf for resto druids.

The enrage timer is a total non-issue here. Just like in normal mode, it's strictly a control and discipline fight. We instructed our melee not to move if their debuff was over 8, unless it was for an Empowered Shock Vortex. We further instructed them not to worry about dpsing from the front or back, just get into nearest possible range of boss and stop moving.

Tips:
For empowered flame spheres, I followed the sphere around, so nobody else had to move, absorbing the fire dart things. I tanked Valanar, so that I was free to do this. I also spent a lot of time cleansing debuffs.

Your shadow tank needs to pay a lot of attention and plan his movements. He will want to stop and reset his debuff on a regular basis - not because it's dangerous to him, the orbs will absorb most of the damage - but so that he doesn't kill off all his orbs early.

With 2 DG specced paladins, you can DG every single Empowered Shock Vortex.

Plan melee movement locations for Empowered Shock Vortex. If they know where to run, they won't kill each other.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Kihra » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:17 am

Meloree wrote:Your shadow tank needs to pay a lot of attention and plan his movements. He will want to stop and reset his debuff on a regular basis - not because it's dangerous to him, the orbs will absorb most of the damage - but so that he doesn't kill off all his orbs early.


I was the shadow tank on this fight, and I let my Shadow Prison stack to 85 at one point. It was pretty much a non-issue. I didn't really even have to think about Shadow Prison while tanking Keleseth. Why does moving around more kill off your orbs early?
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:51 am

When tanking the ShadowLance guy, I also stacked Shadow Prison to 99 stacks (it's max) most of the time; I was much more worried about not getting nuclei into melee range (lol cleave) and positioning the boss for favorable dps/healing so they didn't have to worry about Shadow Prison then I was worried about Shadow Prison on myself.

I don't think the orbs take any damage from the shadow damage they absorb off you, and I always had plenty; usually running around with a groupie cloud of 5-6 orbs.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby pfunkmort » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:40 am

we actually didn't get it down in 10 attempts the first week we were working on it in 10... the two things that were killing us were 1. kinetics hitting the ground because ranged couldn't get there in time (which is much harder in 10 than in 25 because of raid comp and the amount of space 3-4 ranged dps need to cover instead of 10-12 in 25 man). 2. dps and healers who would get knocked back by an unempowered vortex, and then instinctively try to run back to their previous spot (half the time because they wanted to be in their zone to hit back up kinetics if they showed up) and one shotting themselves from too many stacks of the movement debuff. if you can get around those two issues, and deal with the movement debuff, this fight is actually VERY easy - and the enrage is exceedingly forgiving...I think you could do it with 8 people who could stay alive and minimize damage. But it's one of the hardest hard modes I went up against if only because of the spread on kinetics and the ease with which healers and dps will eat themselves from shadow prism, while trying to cover their raid roles.

(ps - meloree is a badass)
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Kihra » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:25 am

Boyfriend wrote:When tanking the ShadowLance guy, I also stacked Shadow Prison to 99 stacks (it's max) most of the time; I was much more worried about not getting nuclei into melee range (lol cleave) and positioning the boss for favorable dps/healing so they didn't have to worry about Shadow Prison then I was worried about Shadow Prison on myself.

I don't think the orbs take any damage from the shadow damage they absorb off you, and I always had plenty; usually running around with a groupie cloud of 5-6 orbs.


Do orbs even take AOE damage from cleaves etc.? I don't think they do as long as you don't have one targeted.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Treck » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:33 am

Not sure about just pure aoes, i think they cannot take damage from it, but not sure.
However Bouncing attacks definately jump to them. That is chainlightning/hammer/avengers shield etc etc, and that will steal more than one orb, sometimes resulting in a dead shadowtank.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Kihra » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:48 am

Treck wrote:Not sure about just pure aoes, i think they cannot take damage from it, but not sure.
However Bouncing attacks definately jump to them. That is chainlightning/hammer/avengers shield etc etc, and that will steal more than one orb, sometimes resulting in a dead shadowtank.


I'm pretty sure attacks like Swipe on my druid didn't hit any of the orbs if I was attacking Keleseth for example. I'm pretty sure Cleaves and such don't hit them either if you're attacking Keleseth. The orbs never really pulled off me to other DPS even when I wasn't hitting them, and I just can't give my DPS that much credit to believe they stopped all their AOE/bouncing attacks. Then again maybe I was using HotR and keeping them on me because of the bouncing.

Either way I didn't have to use my brain at all on this fight. Even in hard mode, I could just ignore the Shadow Prison mechanic and beat on orbs as much as I wanted to. I always had enough to cover me still. :)
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Chicken » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:17 pm

Kihra wrote:
Treck wrote:Not sure about just pure aoes, i think they cannot take damage from it, but not sure.
However Bouncing attacks definately jump to them. That is chainlightning/hammer/avengers shield etc etc, and that will steal more than one orb, sometimes resulting in a dead shadowtank.


You sure about that? I'm pretty sure attacks like Swipe on my druid didn't hit any of the orbs if I was attacking Keleseth for example. I'm pretty sure Cleaves and such don't hit them either if you're attacking Keleseth. The orbs never really pulled off me to other DPS even when I wasn't hitting them, and I just can't give my DPS that much credit to believe they stopped all their AOE/bouncing attacks. :)
They can definitely be stolen by some attacks, as I've had to complain to our warriors charging in and immediately using whirlwind fairly often. They're just immune to attacks which have no upper limit to the amount of targets they hit.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Meloree » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:35 pm

We've definitely had orbs that just seemed to start melting before. We assumed it was due to extra shadow damage from him being empowered, and then further assumed that shadow prison also hurt them.

I'll be honest, having 2-shot it on heroic, it wasn't one of those things that I really dug down and did research on.

Worth noting, though, since a lot of people seem to use an actual tank: one of our warlocks carries a tank-spec for this, he does it every week, and it turned out to be much smoother, if only because orb pickups are easier, and it's easier for him to threat Keleseth, and he doesn't get the cloud stolen by WW/DS type attacks.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Kihra » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:53 pm

Meloree wrote:We've definitely had orbs that just seemed to start melting before. We assumed it was due to extra shadow damage from him being empowered, and then further assumed that shadow prison also hurt them.


I think they melt down on their own over time, even if nobody hits them. This doesn't show up in logs as far as I can tell. In hard mode I watched one of the orbs (not yet picked up) against the wall pulse off 4% at a time on its own, so I think they just melt down faster on hard mode. This is just speculation, though, since I can't really see it in logs.

I don't think Shadow Prison hurts them at all.

We haven't had any reason to switch to a ranged tank for the orbs. What issues did you have using a real tank? I just wear threat gear on the fight (including DPS trinkets) and pop AW at the start. I then don't bother picking up any orbs for the first 20-30 seconds of the fight and just beat on Keleseth to establish a giant threat lead.

Once I have that threat lead, I start running around the room picking up orbs. If he empowers right after Valanar, then I'll pop cooldowns and tank him for a while to get more of a threat lead and then resume picking up orbs. If he empowers third, I tend to have all the orbs I need as well as a giant threat lead, and there's no issue at all.

It's super easy to pick up orbs though, since Hand of Reckoning does work to bring orbs from the walls towards you, and you can keep throwing Hammer of Wrath for threat at Keleseth during the non-empowered times.

I'm sure a ranged tank can work fine also, but we haven't had any issues with using a real tank.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Meloree » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:38 pm

Kihra wrote:We haven't had any reason to switch to a ranged tank for the orbs. What issues did you have using a real tank? I just wear threat gear on the fight (including DPS trinkets) and pop AW at the start. I then don't bother picking up any orbs for the first 20-30 seconds of the fight and just beat on Keleseth to establish a giant threat lead.

I'm sure a ranged tank can work fine also, but we haven't had any issues with using a real tank.


Week one of non-heroic princes, I was having a miserable time with orbs.
1) Melee ripped them off if I didn't stand out when he was empowered.
2) Healers ripped them off somehow if I pulled with HoR (damage didn't every apply)
3) Threat on Keleseth was low (practice, probably).

Ever since then, we've used a ranged tank and had no issues. Orb pickup is smoother, threat is smoother. We saw no reason to change to a real tank for heroic. It's possible than any or all of those issues above come from misunderstanding mechanics. It's possible some of those issues have been stealth-tweaked by Blizz. I'm the first to admit that when we have reliable, repeatable strats, I stop really caring about looking deeper, I spent my attention on progression bosses.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Avengeance » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:31 pm

hand of reckoning was never meant to work on the orbs - they are supposed to be immune to taunts. If however the orbs arent aggroing anyone (they are just sitting there doing nothing), HoR will make them go for you provided noone touches them en route to you - you'd still need to hit them with some proper damage to trigger the 1000k threat that you get when they properly aggro you (to not lose aggro to healers). Of course anyone else applying direct damage to it will transfer the 1000k threat to them.

In theory melee should not aggro the orbs unless they use some multitarget single dmg spells like Hammer of Righteous (I dont think many class has anything similar). Proper AOEs will not hit them, like consecration. I suspect pestilence will transfer diseases to them tho so you have to tell your DKs to not use it or you keep away from them, but I see no reason the need to get near the boss after first 30 sec of the fight.

If you are a pala tank, at pull you ask for all MDs (killshot + MD + TOTTs), followed by wings and 30 secs of nuking, and you are set for the rest of the fight. Then do some Hammer of Wraths on cooldown when the mob isnt empowered, then go away and pull orbs.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Kihra » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:53 am

Avengeance wrote:hand of reckoning was never meant to work on the orbs - they are supposed to be immune to taunts. If however the orbs arent aggroing anyone (they are just sitting there doing nothing), HoR will make them go for you provided noone touches them en route to you - you'd still need to hit them with some proper damage to trigger the 1000k threat that you get when they properly aggro you (to not lose aggro to healers). Of course anyone else applying direct damage to it will transfer the 1000k threat to them.

In theory melee should not aggro the orbs unless they use some multitarget single dmg spells like Hammer of Righteous (I dont think many class has anything similar). Proper AOEs will not hit them, like consecration. I suspect pestilence will transfer diseases to them tho so you have to tell your DKs to not use it or you keep away from them, but I see no reason the need to get near the boss after first 30 sec of the fight.

If you are a pala tank, at pull you ask for all MDs (killshot + MD + TOTTs), followed by wings and 30 secs of nuking, and you are set for the rest of the fight. Then do some Hammer of Wraths on cooldown when the mob isnt empowered, then go away and pull orbs.


Yeah the trick with Hand of Reckoning is you can use it to pull orbs in close enough to get hit by say a Judgment.
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Re: [25H] Blood Princes

Postby Tojara9 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:12 am

I find one of the best tanks for for Keleseth is a DPS specced Unholy DK in Frost Presence who has a few stamina trinkets. What I'll typically do is wear my 2200 rated PvP weapon (with stam gems) and both my Juggernauts trinkets. In frost presence this puts me around 47k health, which essentially means a huge cushion for failure given that an UH DK has bone shield, IBF, and AMS.

I typically do this because a DK in frost presence can pretty much build enough threat in the first minute to last the entire encounter. Because of the huge threat lead I can typically stand at range when people switch to Keleseth so that it's much less likely that the melee 'oops' multiple shadow balls causing a wipe.

Like a Warlock it's absolutely trivial for a DK to pick up shadow balls given the wide variety of spammable ranged abilities. The obvious bonus however is the increased health pool,cooldowns(the debuff will cease to stack while AMS is running), and far better threat.

I just liked it because I was pretty much unkillable and threat was pretty much trivial given I didn't really have to do much past the first minute. This gave me time to focus on picking up balls, throwing my pet at the yellow balls (as well as launching death coils/icy touch at them) and running with the empowered fire ball so it loses it's stacks faster.
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