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[10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Avengeance » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:07 pm

And i wouldnt call using DI a legimate (or intended) tactic, I cant see how encouraging class stacking and sacrificing players is what BLizzard intended. It's definitely not overtuned on 10 men, it is afterall heroic end game instance, and the whole fight is quite controllable provided you dont run some obscure raid setup. We have been able to reproduce 1 shot kills on 10H with different groups in the guild, although getting marks on high HP classes like warriors is a lot easier than getting it on say... a shaman, but the fight is generally rather short so clever rotation of CDs like DG and HoPs and sacrifices in high bloodpower is the key.

1 tip is: Amp magic your whole raid if you have a mage to squeeze out more healing.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Belloc » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:00 pm

Avengeance wrote:And i wouldnt call using DI a legimate (or intended) tactic, I cant see how encouraging class stacking and sacrificing players is what BLizzard intended. It's definitely not overtuned on 10 men, it is afterall heroic end game instance, and the whole fight is quite controllable provided you dont run some obscure raid setup. We have been able to reproduce 1 shot kills on 10H with different groups in the guild, although getting marks on high HP classes like warriors is a lot easier than getting it on say... a shaman, but the fight is generally rather short so clever rotation of CDs like DG and HoPs and sacrifices in high bloodpower is the key.

1 tip is: Amp magic your whole raid if you have a mage to squeeze out more healing.

Encouraging stacking? You mean, like, bringing holy paladins? The fight is overtuned.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Joanadark » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:56 pm

its completely doable without a holy paladin. sure holy paladins are "good" on the fight, but the difference isn't that staggering. It just requires a little bit of actually intelligent play, instead of mindlessly LOLbeaconing your way to victory.

If the fight truly seems that difficult to you, I can almost guarantee that it's because your DPS sucks and aren't min/maxing themselves on the boss and you're getting more marks than you are supposed to and spending too long in the sub-30% frenzy.
Or you're getting hit by blood beasts. Stop getting hit by blood beasts.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Juliaa » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:09 pm

Killed him last night with 2 marks up. Its a very well tuned fight and requires perfect execution. We used disc priest/resto shaman. Our priest shields the raid and it will absorb bloodboil dmg and prevent Saurfang from getting blood power. Tanks needs to do perfect taunts at rune of blood, its very unforgiven in heroic mode and will raise Saurfangs BP bar quickly if they get hit with debuff.

We got our first mark around 50-55% and used BL at 30%.

We had a mage, warlock and moonkin druid killing beasts. Mage and warlock X-dpsed adds and moonkin who stood in the middle knockbacked them when they were halfway to us.

Melees getting marks will make it easier with this healer setup. A holypala/disc priest would be the most optimal healing setup for this encounter i guess.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Avengeance » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:26 am

Juliaa wrote:Killed him last night with 2 marks up. Its a very well tuned fight and requires perfect execution. We used disc priest/resto shaman. Our priest shields the raid and it will absorb bloodboil dmg and prevent Saurfang from getting blood power. Tanks needs to do perfect taunts at rune of blood, its very unforgiven in heroic mode and will raise Saurfangs BP bar quickly if they get hit with debuff.

We got our first mark around 50-55% and used BL at 30%.

We had a mage, warlock and moonkin druid killing beasts. Mage and warlock X-dpsed adds and moonkin who stood in the middle knockbacked them when they were halfway to us.

Melees getting marks will make it easier with this healer setup. A holypala/disc priest would be the most optimal healing setup for this encounter i guess.

Absorbs dont stop BP gain anymore, they changed it this patch after making Marks not giving BP.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Juliaa » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:37 am

Absorbs dont stop BP gain anymore, they changed it this patch after making Marks not giving BP.


Ok, thx for info. I thought it still worked.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Belloc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:05 am

Joanadark wrote:If the fight truly seems that difficult to you, I can almost guarantee that it's because your DPS sucks and aren't min/maxing themselves on the boss and you're getting more marks than you are supposed to and spending too long in the sub-30% frenzy.
Or you're getting hit by blood beasts. Stop getting hit by blood beasts.

That's great and all, but you have to remember that 10-mans are not balanced around min-maxing. No shit my DPS aren't min-maxing themselves, I've got a mage that has, afaik, zero caster raid buffs going for him.

You can say that shit all you want in a 25-man thread, but 10-mans are not balanced around having a perfect balance of raid buffs.

I don't expect my 25-man to have nearly as much difficulty with this fight as my 10-man. That's overtuned.
Last edited by Belloc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Argali » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:20 am

Apparently bloodlust is optional in 10 mans.

I beg to differ, but it's what blizz said.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Kihra » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:23 pm

Juliaa wrote:
Absorbs dont stop BP gain anymore, they changed it this patch after making Marks not giving BP.


Ok, thx for info. I thought it still worked.


I am pretty sure (bot not 100% sure) that it does still work to stop BP gains. We have reasonably conclusive evidence in our logs that absorbs do work, just by observing first marks that were played perfectly and counting the unabsorbed boiling blood ticks.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Joanadark » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:57 pm

Argali wrote:Apparently bloodlust is optional in 10 mans.

I beg to differ, but it's what blizz said.


blizz says some stupid things sometimes.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Belloc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:37 pm

Kihra wrote:
Juliaa wrote:
Absorbs dont stop BP gain anymore, they changed it this patch after making Marks not giving BP.


Ok, thx for info. I thought it still worked.


I am pretty sure (bot not 100% sure) that it does still work to stop BP gains. We have reasonably conclusive evidence in our logs that absorbs do work, just by observing first marks that were played perfectly and counting the unabsorbed boiling blood ticks.


Absorbs such as Power Word: Shield no longer prevent Blood Power from being gained when damage is dealt by Saurfang. Casting Power Word: Shield is not a bad thing to do as the ability will absorb the damage dealt. This was an intentional 3.3.2 change. We also removed the ability to knockback the Blood Beasts off the platform and the removed of Blood Power gain from Mark of the Fallen Champion damage. We unfortunately missed getting these changes into the patch notes.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby RedAces » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:44 pm

heyho,

DI does in fact work, we tried using it on the first mark to counter the massive BP-gain, but keep in mind that DI only lasts 3mins and the enrage-timer is 6 / 8 mins ?

We killed it this week using 2 healer (RShamy + RDruid) with 3 marks up... having mark-victims stand in melee with chain heal and hots all the way helped us pretty much. We used heroism early to maximize time w/o marks (I think the first mark came at ~65%). Be sure that every mark-victim has to minimize the damage - intake (our dps-Warrior had the mark and used Schield Wall sub-30% with more than 80 BP (-> +80% Damage) ).

It really is a thight fight, but with the zone-wide buff active tomorrow, it should get easier :)

Bye, Liyandra.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Kihra » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:11 pm

Belloc wrote:Absorbs such as Power Word: Shield no longer prevent Blood Power from being gained when damage is dealt by Saurfang. Casting Power Word: Shield is not a bad thing to do as the ability will absorb the damage dealt. This was an intentional 3.3.2 change. We also removed the ability to knockback the Blood Beasts off the platform and the removed of Blood Power gain from Mark of the Fallen Champion damage. We unfortunately missed getting these changes into the patch notes.


Yeah, I'm aware that was stated, but it's not consistent with what I see in logs. It's really difficult to analyze, though, since you can't see the BP gains in logs. My guild has a script that runs over logs and actually tracks each mark time along with what happened during each mark period (unabsorbed BB ticks, absorbed ticks, blood novas, beast hits, and rune of blood ticks). The #s are reasonably consistent with absorbs stopping the BP gain.

I suspect that the BP orbs may actually have travel time from the target to Saurfang, and so the BP gain doesn't happen at the exact same time as the Boiling Blood tick, though, and that may be throwing off the numbers. There's also oddness where his Blood Power buff can fade and then take a couple of seconds to get put back up again following a Mark cast.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Argali » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:27 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Argali wrote:Apparently bloodlust is optional in 10 mans.

I beg to differ, but it's what blizz said.


blizz says some stupid things sometimes.


No matter how stupid, it's being said by the people making the game. And the fact that bloodlust is "optional" in 10 mans was said in response to why such a powerful buff like bloodlust is only available from 1 class, and what happens if you don't actually have a shaman for 10's.

Just do hard modes without bloodlust. It's "optional" after all.
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Re: [10] Deathbringer Saurfang [Heroic]

Postby Belloc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:32 pm

RedAces wrote:heyho,

DI does in fact work, we tried using it on the first mark to counter the massive BP-gain, but keep in mind that DI only lasts 3mins and the enrage-timer is 6 / 8 mins ?

The enrage is something like 5 or 6 minutes. If you use DI just before the second mark goes out, it will not expire before the enrage.
Last edited by Belloc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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