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[25H] Lady Deathwhisper

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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Blitzago » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:02 pm

Belloc wrote:Bosses that MC players have been critting tanks for quite a while, so it's safe to assume that as the reason.

Yeah.. Our MT was crit for 50k about 2 weeks ago by her, while wearing frost resist so we went over his gear and he was still over 5.6%.. Unless for some reason resil doesn't count towards the crit cap?. This Explains alot.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:26 am

Word is that the ghosts are inactive for a brief period of time upon spawning.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Treck » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:01 am

Blitzago wrote:Yeah.. Our MT was crit for 50k about 2 weeks ago by her, while wearing frost resist so we went over his gear and he was still over 5.6%.. Unless for some reason resil doesn't count towards the crit cap?. This Explains alot.

I dont see much of a point wearing frost ress gear for this fight, since you can interrupt the only frostdamaging spell.
Ive personally noticed that as long as she doesnt get 2x frostbolts of in a row, it shouldnt kill you, but if you can reduce dmg intake as easy as a kick, you shouldnt need frost ress gear.
I dont know for a fact if a pally who gets MCd can use consentration aura + AM to make it impossible to interrupt, but we just have most people with those kind of CDs use them, incase they get MCd.
Resilience does count towards the crittcap.
Things like a paladin using hand of sacrifice on the boss is a pretty bad thing :P
Oh, and BoP. use them :P Even if its easy to dispell if those people have that reactiontime, its still easier without that panic.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby cds4850 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:15 am

Treck wrote:I dont see much of a point wearing frost ress gear for this fight, since you can interrupt the only frostdamaging spell.

Correct me if I am wrong, but does she not have both a cast frost bolt as well as random insta-cast frost bolts?
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Chicken » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:30 am

cds4850 wrote:
Treck wrote:I dont see much of a point wearing frost ress gear for this fight, since you can interrupt the only frostdamaging spell.

Correct me if I am wrong, but does she not have both a cast frost bolt as well as random insta-cast frost bolts?
Yes, but those insta-cast frost bolts you are referring to are her Frost Bolt Volley, which isn't nearly as damaging as her frost bolts with a cast time. The Volley does 14400 to 17600 base damage (so prior to resists and other forms of damage reduction), while the single target frost bolt does 58500 to 61500 base damage. Frost resist for the volley alone is folly, but it's a valid choice for the single target frost bolts, assuming you can't count on people to always interrupt.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Avengeance » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:34 am

We put some FR on the MT OT, just because there are chances for the kickers to get interupted (we put 2 rogues full time on boss), or they brain lag and miss. The FR doesnt really hurt their threat much, and it puts 1 less burden off the rogues, so they know if they miss one it wont be end of the world.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:09 am

So... all the suggestions that her Frostbolt is not affected by resistances are bullshit? I'm getting tired of misinformation. We'll tranq.shot heroic Icehowl all we want, thank you very much.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Avengeance » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:34 am

I read about those suggestions too on WoWWiki, but i confirmed it myself with our own logs and it clearly showed partial resists on the frost bolts, thats why we concluded to wear FR.
Code: Select all
Lady Deathwhisper Frostbolt  Avengeance 34897  (A: 2849, R: 11701)
Lady Deathwhisper Frostbolt  Avengeance 21682  (A: 11426, R: 17595)


Just a few examples, i think that was before we even used FR gear.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby chinoquezada » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:46 am

Well, you can wear Frost Resist and it does help with the frostbolts but you shouldn't have to. Your dps should be more than able to handle interrupts.
Hell, the interrupts aren't even the hard part of the fight. Your raiders require way more reaction time to move away from spawning ghosts than to freaking spam their interrupts.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Avengeance » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:21 pm

Thast the thing, you get times when kickers and healers are MCed/running away from ghosts or kick on CD on whatever and then 1 frost bolt goes off. Its very spikey dmg, and it's very risky. 1 or 2 piece of FR will make the frost bolts + nxt melee swing very survivable.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby chinoquezada » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:22 pm

Avengeance wrote:Thast the thing, you get times when kickers and healers are MCed/running away from ghosts or kick on CD on whatever and then 1 frost bolt goes off. Its very spikey dmg, and it's very risky. 1 or 2 piece of FR will make the frost bolts + nxt melee swing very survivable.


You are telling me that there is such a time when ALL your:
Mages
Shamans
Rogues
Ferals Cats
Fury Warriors
DKs
Paladins
MM Hunters

Are MCed or Running Away or Have their interrupt on CD?


What I'm trying to make you realize here is that you are gearing (or making your tank gear) with subpar equipment because of how much your dps raiders fail.


This fight IS NOT like Sindragosa, where you need FR resist to avoid Frost Breath gibs. If a boss ability CAN BE interrupted, it should be. Even more so when almost every class in the game can use something in their arsenal to interrupt.

Hell, gearing Frost Resist in this fight is as erroneous as gearing for Fire Resist on Vezax because people kept failing at kicks. You don't cover up the kicker failures, you drill into their minds the idea that they CANT FAIL at it.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:32 pm

Wearing a fallback set of gear that easily allow you to operate within the margins of the fight is much more intelligent than relying on 100% of your potential interrupters to be available and expecting it to be their turn while things might be going wrong.

Avengeance offered up much more useful information than your post did. And considering Avengeance achieved his kill before you did, I'd recommend not calling his raiders failures. Take that shit elsewhere.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby chinoquezada » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:37 pm

Belloc wrote:Wearing a fallback set of gear that easily allow you to operate within the margins of the fight is much more intelligent than relying on 100% of your potential interrupters to be available and expecting it to be their turn while things might be going wrong.

Avengeance offered up much more useful information than your post did. And considering Avengeance achieved his kill before you did, I'd recommend not calling his raiders failures. Take that shit elsewhere.


Reread my post and don't turn "fail at interrupting" into "utterly fail at the game". Way to overreact.



To add some numbers to this, on our kill (here) the Deathwhisper tank took a Grand Total of 4 (FOUR) Frostbolts over a period of around 3-4mins (p2) for a total of 132k dmg (33k damage in average).
Keep in mind that this was our first HM kill on her as well, so our raiders were not even close as experienced at interrupting as they will be when this encounter gets into farm status for us.

Wearing FR Gear for this encounter (at least for us) is nothing we would even consider.



Now, my intention with this post is to try and change the discussion into the more crucial parts of the encounter that have, so far, not received much attention.
In my guild's experience, wipes in this encounter occur because of the following:

1. Bad P1 to P2 transition.
A very dumb thing to happen, but it did happen to us once or twice.

2. DPS not clear about how the adds work, specially in p2.
Basically, this encounter is so easy in Reg Mode that most guilds didn't really bother to learn how it worked and just facerolled it, whereas HM is much much less unforgiving in add management.
I resorted to creating this image for our raiders so that they knew what their priorities were:
Image
X is the priority, then O mob that is closer to the stage. Where the dwarf paladin is, is where the adds were gonna generally be tanked.
Adherents don't need to be tanked at all. (which leads to the warrior fanatic kite strat as well. We will probably try this eventually.)

3. MCs not being CCed quickly.
MCed classes that have CCs of their own are extremely dangerous if not put under control promptly. We had such problems as rogues blinding the add tank (me), or warriors dropping fear bombs on the healers.
Hell, we once had a Ret Paladin, a Warrior, and a Resto Druid MCed at the same time and boy they showed us the power of a cleave 3s arena team. It was the definition of a beautiful death.

4. Failing at ghosts.
Pretty self explanatory.
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Avengeance » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:02 pm

Just to elaborate a bit further, we put most of our melee on add killing team so none of them would be free to interupt boss (as said previously, we leave a ret and 2 rogues on boss). Now the chances of the ret + 2 rogues running away from ghost is quite high, and our casters arent usually assigned to interupts because melees can do it better, not to mention unless you are a shaman, your interupt is gonna be on a huge cd.
And unless I missed something, since when can feral and MM hunter kick? Silencing shot afaik doesnt "kick", it silences, and most MMs macroed it to their normal rotation so its not on-demand use.

Anyway, yes, the P1 to P2 transition is very important and prone to wipe. The best time to do it is probably middle of a wave when most of the adds are nearly dead, and you dont want the first P2 wave to spawn straight away so the OT have time to pick them up. Very important thing is assign some kickers onto the boss as soon as it breaks, so the MT can kite him to whenever you tank him (we use middle of room, some use stairs) without the boss stopping to cast. And chain some MDs on the MT when shield is on 1%, many time we have remnant aoe going off while finishing the wave and aggros the boss.

Once you stabilised the transition - just keep the p2 waves under control with a small team (1 tank 1 healer + 5 melee is what we use). We usually kill each wave with 5-10 secs ahead of time depending on MCs and ghost spawns. If you are slightly behind in time, tell ranged on either side to assist a bit, or stun/slow the adds while you as the tank run off to other side to pick new wave. Usually I just tank the melee mobs and chain taunt the caaster mobs who aggros some melee dps, but if possible i do try to tank them all together so melee can cleave and kill them faster.

And there's no easy way around the ghosts other than l2p and watch for it. Just for reference the ghost damage is actually resistable (I think it falls under frost dmg, if not it's shadow then). It wont 1 shot anything less than 25k hp, but the killer is double ghost or ghost + AOE frost bolts. Our tactic involves around ppl spreading in a full circle around the boss (with pre assigned positions for key members like Cyclones and sheeps in 4 diff position on the circle). So basically you have at leats 2 CC covering each side of the room, with spare CCs like fears and hunter traps in other places.

FYI: Cyclones are best CCs in this fight, because it makes the people immune to damage and so they wont accidentally die to aoe in p1 or cleaves. Our resto druids actually stay in druid form for all fight (makes them eaiser to CC too if they get MCed, because trees are elemental and only locks can banish them).
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Re: [25H] Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Treck » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:04 pm

First of all, from my experience deathwhisper doesnt hit that hard, or fast for that matter.
And while the frostbolts hit for the major part of your health, one frostbolt + autoswing shouldnt kill you, esp not if your a paladin.
This makes me feel like frostress is pretty useless.
I wouldnt say your stupid if your using frostress, but i dont feel thats a problem.
Good comunication is really important here imo.
If someone gets MCd, esp if a rogue gets MCd, they should yell it out so that someone can cover it.
We use 2x prot warriors on the boss so they have no problem helping out with the interrupting.
Even tho the 2 rogues are chaining TotT's alternating on the tanks and interrupting, its not hard telling out on vent if they get MCd so someone can take up for the interrupting.
Actually everyone who are dpsing the boss and can interrupt, are always aware when she is casting, and ofthen if a cast isnt interrupted fast enough, people take it into their own hands to interrupt, sometimes resulting in 5+ people using their interrupts for the sake of interrupting it.
Playing as a team is more important.
If your learning this fight, some frostress gear might even be usefull actually.
When everyone is new to the encounter, someone dying or getting MCed can take a few more sec to get back under control than if youve done the fight a few times before.
IF frostbolts are killing your tanks, use some frostress to make sure thats not the issue if you want. Sure the interrupters fail badly if that is the case, but if you can replace those people in a sec do so, if you cant, then make yourself survive despite them failing imo.
I dont wanna say people should gear and expect people to be failing, but if you cant replace the people who does fail, what else can you do?
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