Normal -> Heroic Changes

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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby inthedrops » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:22 am

Man we really failed on Marrowgar 10. We probably took 15 attempts where we over complicated things before we finally figured out what works for us. Unlike Deathwhisper where we killed it on the second go.

We had only two ranged dps and no Druid rolling HoT's (had pally and two priests) so it made the fight VERY challenging. The main problem we were trying to work around was people getting gibbed during bone storm when Marrowgar decided to bonestorm on the people DPS'ing a spike. That was the main challenge of the night.

In the end, what we did really smoothed things out a lot. We:
1. DPS the crap out of spikes (we initially were trying to keep only ranged on them to avoid the excessive bonestorm damage but that just wasn't working). Obviously you still need to gtfo if he bonestorms on top of a spike being DPS'd.
2. Used cooldown rotations on the Spiked people during Bonestorm (HoP for example).
3. More intelligent healer positioning.

This fight would be so much easier if we didn't have three melee DPS but we managed to pull it off. The biggest factor I think was the cooldown rotation on spikes.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Kihra » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:03 pm

Yeah cooldowns on the 2nd Bone Spike in each Bone Storm were key for us. Once we covered those people, we were able to get a kill. This is one of those bosses that is actually harder in 10 than he is in 25.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Avengeance » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:12 pm

We used 1 tank on P2 too full time, and we only had 1 rogue doing TOTT. It was quite tough towards the end, but we have 3 paladins in group + 1 intervene, so we just rotated salvs and intervenes and personal threat dump. It'd be a lot easier if u haev a hunter too, but you really should have at least 1 type of MD. We found that trying to tank it bloodboil style wouldnt work for a pala OT because of mana issues, so I MTed her and warrior just did the adds + intervene.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Synesis » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:55 pm

What we found that made out lady D fight's debuff trivial was we tanked her right at the bottom of the stairs where the add spawns, since there's only one we just tanked it with her and roflpwned the add with cleave damage.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Belloc » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:01 am

Synesis wrote:What we found that made out lady D fight's debuff trivial was we tanked her right at the bottom of the stairs where the add spawns, since there's only one we just tanked it with her and roflpwned the add with cleave damage.

And, amazingly, no one has stated this yet. I'm seriously amazed that it took so long for someone to point out something that should've been obvious. Hat's off to you :)
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Joanadark » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:41 am

that should've been obvious.


well yeah. utilizing cleave is the most efficient form of DPS in the game. that's not strat info though. that's basic raid mechanics.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Anorian » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:13 am

must say 10 man hardmodes are harder than i thought they would be. We 1 shot the first three but I'd say that was more luck than stomping it. We have a very melee heavy setup which makes saurfang interesting to say the least. Also killing bonespikes on marrowgar was fun with someone on the wrong side of the room.

Anyway for saurfang we had the offtank, stun the mob run out of range and taunt it. The melee in the meantime burn it down while our 2 ranged a spriest and offspec ele shaman took down the other. We still died at max 18%, he hits so much harder and the bloodpower gain is so high we probably end up with 3-4 marks when we kill it. All dps are doing around 8k dps so yeah fun encounter:D. Hope we kill it next time.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby PsiVen » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:28 am

Deathbringer Saurfang is just insane without a holy paladin. With perfect execution, the wrong person hit with Blood Nova during high BP will simply drop dead during the Frenzy, heal him for 20% and wipe you on the spot. With perfect execution, his first mark will go out 10% earlier thanks to RNG. Dealing with the raid and tank damage is quite intense without a Beacon and requires cooldowns when he's at high power.

I liked the challenge, but it was frustrating to feel like we were being RNG fucked all night. We didn't have the DPS to brute force it with 3 healers, so we had our elemental shaman healing marks after the Heroism sub-30%. He and the other two healers were completely OOM by 1% and thankfully he fell over. I can see nerf coming to this guy (say 30% increased damage, but only .5% damage per point of Blood Power).
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby james31 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:10 am

Sarufang-10 HC is sorta doable without a Holy Paladin, but very hard. With a priest or shaman, it helps if people with marks go within 15 yards of the tanks or closer so Chain Heal and ProM can do their job. It's basically impossible unless you do this. The 10 man mark does ~6K dmg and ticks every 0.8s. Yep, 7500 DPS. Whilst a Holy paladin can do this with his eyes closed and Divine Plea up, it's actually close to the peak single target HPS of a priest (tho' 2-set T10/Inspiration makes this more manageable).

Most people tend to tank Sarufang with their back to the door and facing the teleporter. If you flip him around, the marked can get closer to the tank without worrying about Blood Nova on melee. This does trade 1 problem for another though - i.e. it drastically cuts down on the travel time for the mobs, so unless you get lucky with marks (i.e. first on melee, second on healer), it's trading 1 problem for another. We had 3 ranged, I doubt you'd have the same problem with 4.

Sarufang-25 HC... hah. You'd need 1.5 priests per mark or 1 paladin + cross-support healer per 2 marks. Guess I'll be relogging my paladin alt for that one.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Jaesthenis » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:31 am

james31 wrote:Sarufang-10 HC is sorta doable without a Holy Paladin, but very hard. With a priest or shaman, it helps if people with marks go within 15 yards of the tanks or closer so Chain Heal and ProM can do their job. It's basically impossible unless you do this. The 10 man mark does ~6K dmg and ticks every 0.8s. Yep, 7500 DPS. Whilst a Holy paladin can do this with his eyes closed and Divine Plea up, it's actually close to the peak single target HPS of a priest (tho' 2-set T10/Inspiration makes this more manageable).


On a side note, Saurfang only does Physical damages, so amplify magic (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=43017) is usefull to help healer.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:03 am

Shoju wrote:If Lady Death is untauntable, how do you deal with the redux in threat?

When she mind controls someone, it resets their threat (or at least, it did when we killed her). So the DPS only needs to watch threat if they go a long time without being MC-ed. On our kill, I solo-tanked her while the other tank picked up adds and did utility stuff. I bubbled the first 5-stack and let it build up again, then just tanked her the rest of the fight with a full 5-stack. Nobody ever caught up.

I also had a hunter MD to me on cooldown to build extra threat, but I don't think it ended up being necessary anyway.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Wrathy » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:06 am

We tanked her on the stairs at the entrance to the room in Phase Two with both tanks right on top of her. The first tank plows away and at the 5 stack, bubbles off the stacks. I had our off tank start building threat at three stacks. Once I had gone through two full 5 stack rotations, our other tank pulled ahead and we rotated back and forth based on the debuff. Adds just got cleaved down, and by the time I got the boss back after my stack of 5 was off, there was no one on the threat meter any where near us.
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:13 am

PsiVen wrote:Deathbringer Saurfang is just insane without a holy paladin. With perfect execution, the wrong person hit with Blood Nova during high BP will simply drop dead during the Frenzy, heal him for 20% and wipe you on the spot. With perfect execution, his first mark will go out 10% earlier thanks to RNG. Dealing with the raid and tank damage is quite intense without a Beacon and requires cooldowns when he's at high power.

I liked the challenge, but it was frustrating to feel like we were being RNG fucked all night. We didn't have the DPS to brute force it with 3 healers, so we had our elemental shaman healing marks after the Heroism sub-30%. He and the other two healers were completely OOM by 1% and thankfully he fell over. I can see nerf coming to this guy (say 30% increased damage, but only .5% damage per point of Blood Power).

This was also our DBS experience this week, though we didn't kill him. We tried Disc/Druid, Disc/Disc/Druid, Holy/Disc/Druid healing comps, and in all cases we would be OK until we got a combination of Mark+Blood Boil that killed someone in 1-2 seconds flat. Tank damage seemed OK with smart use of cooldowns.

It's nice that it's hard, but it feels like we're at a severe disadvantage just because we didn't include a Holy paladin in our comp. More than a little frustrating.

Another issue we had is that our comp only has 3 ranged dps (Me/Druid tanking, Priest/Druid healing, DK/EnhShaman/Warrior melee dps, Hunter/Mage/Priest ranged dps). If the shadow priest goes disc to have a third healer, we only have 2 ranged dps.

To compensate, we had melee kill one add. Whichever tank wasn't currently on DBS would pick up one add and stun him, the ranged covered the other one. I found that if the melee dps was on the ball, the melee beast would die without getting more than 1 attack off if I tanked it (HoJ) and 1-2 off if the druid tanked it (Bash). This seemed to work reasonably well, as we were still on track to only have 3 marks (with a 4th possible in the last couple percent, at which point I'd DG).
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby Avengeance » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:30 am

We 2 healered saurfang (holy pala + Resto sham), with a dps setup of 2x boomkin, 1 lock, 1 ret, 1 rogue and 1 enh. The lock specced into Shadowfury for aoe stun opener (when me and ret's HoJ are on CD for the second set of adds). The ranged are spread onto 1 add each (boomkins specced into knockback too), they'll use their knockbacks when add gets close, then melee joins in to help dps the adds after the knockback (and sufficient aggro on ranged dps).

We find that the higher dps is worth sacrificing for a 3rd healer - the tank damage wasnt that bad at all until his BP was above 80, and clever rotation of CDs in last 15% to ensure marks dont die (Divine guardians, sacs, HoPs).
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Re: Normal -> Heroic Changes

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:50 am

Avengeance wrote:We find that the higher dps is worth sacrificing for a 3rd healer - the tank damage wasnt that bad at all until his BP was above 80, and clever rotation of CDs in last 15% to ensure marks dont die (Divine guardians, sacs, HoPs).

Yeah, when we go back we're going to try with 2 healers again. Unfortunately, we don't have the ranged stuns or knockbacks that your group has, so I think we'll stick to our melee strat. We were a little loose with the Rune of Blood taunting thanks to that strategy, which didn't help - if we can clean that up a bit it will help a lot. One attempt he healed for 2 million because I had to tank through almost 10 seconds of the debuff.
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