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[25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Meloree » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:52 am

Worldie wrote:I don't get why people would waste cooldowns on the Soul Reaper, just have the other tank taunt when you get it :|
We've been doing like that from the start and we never had any tank death.


Because 35k melee swing plus 60k soulreaper to the face in the same 0.1s hurts, and even if it's a bug, where Soul Reaper is supposed to replace a melee swing, it's better to cooldown and live through the bug every time? It's not like it's hard to build a cooldown rotation for it, and there isn't anything else to spend your cooldowns on.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Worldie » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:04 am

wingman wrote:
Worldie wrote:Healers switching? o.o ever heard of holy paladins?



Ever heard of beacon falling off?

If beacon is allowed to fall off i'm afraid you'd need better holy paladins.
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Felyndiia » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:34 pm

I told the second tank to skill Safeguard. The 30% dmg reduction was very powerful and it took the melee swing between the shadow dmg. It's on a 30 Second cd, that means the warrior simply used it on cd, leaving me the possibility to save my cds for unpredictable situations.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Cheddar » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:44 pm

I'm usually a prot warrior but was on my holy paladin alt last night for Lich King 25.

Every now and then the druid MT would just fall over inexplicably. We thought we were dealing with Soul Reaper properly by taunting but after trawling the logs after the night was over I found a dozen cases that look like this:

[22:06:34.279] The Lich King hits Sevnar 28798 (A: 3708)
[22:06:34.308] Warsome Beacon of Light Sevnar +0 (O: 13544)
[22:06:34.380] Sevnar Maul The Lich King 3714
[22:06:34.386] Bazull Chain Heal Sevnar +0 (O: 9390)
[22:06:34.386] The Lich King Soul Reaper Sevnar 30909 (O: 11296, R: 12361)

That is the initial application of the soul reaper debuff, not the effect after 5 seconds. I know we aren't alone in our frustration at this auto-swing + soul reaper mechanic. It can't be intended can it?

I even love how he gets 22k of heals in the 0.11s between attacks that are supposedly 100% overheal.

I think for the time being the solution is to cooldown the tank every 30 seconds or use a prot paladin for a free life every time it happens?


Re: Safeguard above - did threat ever become a problem intervening the MT every 30 secs?
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Meloree » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:50 pm

Cheddar wrote:That is the initial application of the soul reaper debuff, not the effect after 5 seconds. I know we aren't alone in our frustration at this auto-swing + soul reaper mechanic. It can't be intended can it?

I think for the time being the solution is to cooldown the tank every 30 seconds or use a prot paladin for a free life every time it happens?


I assume that auto-swing + soul reaper is intended, as it happens far too regularily to be anything but one of Blizzards "use cooldown here" events. It's somewhat surprising that it's on an ability with no castbar or emote, though, Blizzard doesn't normally explicitly require you to use bossmods. However, using a cooldown every 30s between 2 tanks isn't really particularily demanding.

As an aside, for everyone who calls the initial application "harmless, because it's only 50% weapon damage" - remember that Arthas' weapon damage is on the order of 120,000. The initial application is typically 60k shadow damage or more, it doesn't just tickle.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Felyndiia » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:07 pm

Cheddar wrote:Re: Safeguard above - did threat ever become a problem intervening the MT every 30 secs?


Smasher started crying at 20% :D, after the Warrior gave me Vigilance to taunt very often the vile spirits AND I used the glyphed Salvation as an aditional cd. Threat was no real issue (with every piece of survival def gear, ignoring every threat stats), because of the dps on all the other things (raging spirits, vile spirits, valkyries).
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Gaffer » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:23 am

Worldie wrote:I don't get why people would waste cooldowns on the Soul Reaper, just have the other tank taunt when you get it :|
We've been doing like that from the start and we never had any tank death.


We opted to cooldown through it instead of taunting it off since the 100% increased attack speed isn't something we felt comfortable completely ignoring.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Treck » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:04 am

Theres a lot of risks involved in swapping tanks. At all encounters. If you can stick with one id prefer that way, and since the soul reaper is on such a reliable CD, it should be no trouble building a rotataion for it.
Besides, if your co-tank is a warrior, he is better off helping out with spirits and/or valkyrs. Besides you will have to CD some of the soulreapers anyway if you co-tank is tanking raging spirits.
We use tricks/FoK in P1 to get the small adds to the offtank tanking the horrors, vigilance from the OT on me, and salvation in P3&5 so threat can get close but if you do it right you shouldnt have to worry.
I used a cancelaura macro for salvation, to only have it up pretty much a sec or 2 during the final spike from soulreaper, to avoid threat problems. But for CDs with longer duration (PS, GS, SW etc) you should use them on the timer, so that you can avoid those rare occations with initial SR tick + meele swing could kill you.
I personally felt that trinkets were a pretty safe CD to use, and didnt need any other support from weak CDs to keep me alive, using Juggernaut's Vitality on the timer, then the Skeleton key for the final application of Soul reaper. I prefered to get a second CD for the times i was using eather DG of Salvation (GS and PS came nice in place there)
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby PsiVen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:31 am

I feel like something has changed in the past week with the Soul Reaper, because last night we didn't just have it line up with melee a couple times, it happened almost every time. It feels like the haste buff is during the debuff instead of after now, making it really dangerous to try taunting after the application. Our warrior tank was getting one-shot at least once a pull by this, and we changed things around so that we can preemptively cooldown them. I've seen several people that killed him days ago posting they didn't have any trouble keeping their tanks up, but I just don't see how you could possibly have not run into problems using that strategy unless it changed. Otherwise, I'd love to see how a warrior can survive 70k damage in .11s without a cooldown.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Gaffer » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:47 am

The haste buff to Arthas definitely still occurs when Soul Reaper fades. From a kill I tanked last night on my Death Knight:

[19:54:37.704] Gtt afflicted by Soul Reaper from The Lich King
[19:54:40.057] The Lich King hits Gtt 21016
[19:54:42.467] The Lich King hits Gtt Parry
[19:54:42.758] The Lich King Soul Reaper Gtt 7320 (A: 36380)
[19:54:42.758] Gtt's Soul Reaper fades
[19:54:43.843] The Lich King hits Gtt 15291 (A: 2285)
[19:54:45.085] The Lich King hits Gtt 17936 (A: 3221)
[19:54:46.310] The Lich King hits Gtt 13134 (A: 3433)
[19:54:47.494] The Lich King hits Gtt 16855 (A: 127)
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby wingman » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:39 am

I gotta agree with Psiven that Soul Reaper seemed to have changed or something. We finally killed Lich King in 25 man last night. Our wipes last week and earlier this week were mostly due to the raid failing at defile and/or Val'kyr pickups, but with me tanking the Lich King and just using cooldowns for every Soul Reaper, there were some occasional issues keeping me up.

We adjusted our strat though. A couple seconds after the Lich King applied soul reaper, our other tank (Kihra on these boards) would taunt him from the other side of the room. He'd run to him, and when right as the boss got in melee range of him, I'd taunt him back. Basically I'd eat the dot tick, get healed up, and the boss would be running around the room out of melee range of anyone when he had the increased damage/haste buff.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Kihra » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:18 pm

Yeah, rather than tank swapping, we'd just use two taunts to bounce the Lich King between us during his hasted period. This ended up working really well. Basically right after Soul Reaper landed on Wiingman, I'd taunt from the other side of the room. The Lich King would spend 2-3 seconds running to me, and then as he got to me, Wiingman would just taunt back. By the time the Lich King got back to Wiingman, his buff would be gone and Wiingman would be topped off after the 2nd Soul Reaper hit.

I was able to do this taunt while still helping out on Valkyrs and Vile Spirits. It felt very controlled and safe to do it this way, rather than having to worry about whether a more minor cooldown (like a -20% one) would actually keep you up.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby PsiVen » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:10 pm

Doesn't that pretty much rely on AD procs to survive the reaper+melee gib though? Or do you find that our crazy EH makes it not too much a problem for us? I would say the combo is fatal to our warrior about 80% of the time and "fatal" 1/3 of the time to me...
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Argali » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:48 pm

Worldie wrote:Healers switching? o.o ever heard of holy paladins?


You're making the assumption that every guild will have a holy paladin. If you know some please send them my way. My guild could use one.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Kihra » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:59 pm

PsiVen wrote:Doesn't that pretty much rely on AD procs to survive the reaper+melee gib though? Or do you find that our crazy EH makes it not too much a problem for us? I would say the combo is fatal to our warrior about 80% of the time and "fatal" 1/3 of the time to me...


You really can anticipate the Soul Reaper application most of the time and have a cooldown running already. Almost any minor cooldown (including trinkets) is enough to prevent that initial gib. Even if you don't have a cooldown running, AD is usually enough to cover the gib case, since the OT will have taunted him and there's time to heal the MT back up while the LK is running away.

Some of the easiest Soul Reapers to anticipate are the ones that come after casts like Infest and Defile. You just plain know it's been held up by the cast and that it's going to come right after, so you can be ready for it with a running cooldown.
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