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[25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

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[25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Synesis » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:47 pm

Has anyone been noticing any odd mechanics with Soul Reaper in 25 man lately? I'm the MT for Lich King for the later phases and I've noticed, backed up with our logs, that Soul Reaper is procing it's huge damage proc more than just once. Based on our logs it seems that it's procing right at the start of the debuff (which I believe is how it's suppose to work) and again at 5 seconds there after, and in one instance 8 seconds again after 5 seconds.

Such as when this occured:

[23:00:48.725] The Lich King Soul Reaper Synesis 32858 (A: 14081, R: 6273)
[23:00:53.423] The Lich King hits Synesis 31588 (A: 5641)
[23:00:53.713] The Lich King Soul Reaper Synesis 30063 (O: 19820)

Our logs can be found here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-x ... details/7/
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Meloree » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:58 pm

That's pretty much exactly how it works. Soul Reaper applies for massive damage twice - once on application and again 5 seconds later - and it can coincide with melee swings.

We dealt with it by cooldowning every one, and tauntswapping to make use of more tank cooldowns. Our Feral took every other one with barkskin+4pc bonus, and I took every other one with DG+Trinkets+AD, and DP. External cooldowns were available but not really required, the healers kept them in reserve for bad valkyr pickups, or bad harvest soul targets.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Belloc » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:10 pm

I've got two questions regarding Soul Reaper.

First, does it occur on a consistent (predictable) basis?

For the second question, note that I picked up the Sindragosa on-use resistance trinket.

The Soul Repear damage is partially resistable -- does it check resistance when applied or when the damage procs (at the end of the debuff). Or both?

Essentially, I'm wanting to know if I'm going to be able to predict Soul Reaper to the point where I can consider my trinket to be a part of my cooldown rotation. Failing that, I want to at least be able to have it effective on the damage at the end of the debuff. Hoping for at least one of these :P
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby repent » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:21 pm

Are you saying soul reaper is hitting 3 times? IE, Soul reaper has 2 known parts. The first is that it does 50% weapon damage and then 60,000 after 5 secs. I have noticed a number of times that he uses his melee attack after the first application of soul reaper, and before the dot ticks. (50% weapon damage at inital application, then melee hit, then dot.) I'll review my logs to see if I'm getting more. What we have been trying with more success is to just taunt off immediately upon application so we dont get the melee hit to coincide with the dot tick and death.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Synesis » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:32 pm

Yea Soul Reaper is predictable, he does it every 30 seconds on the dot. Yea we were pretty much working on valks on the most part but near the latter end of the night this was our issue (like the last few attempts b4 raid time was over). We were thinking of tank swamping since that seems to be the only solution it seems at the time, but wasn't the main goal of the night. Hoping on an LK down this week ><;

Yea on the odd occasion we see it appear 3 times, dunno if it's due to lag or just some sort of hotfix that broke it.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby PsiVen » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:19 am

The initial application (50% weapon damage) of Soul Reaper usually seems like it has replaced a weapon swing and resets his swing timer, so it's barely noticed... Until it bugs out and you get a melee+reaper to the face, probably gibbing you. It hasn't been really been confirmed as a bug, but it's pretty stupid if that's intended.

In 10-man we rotate 2 and 2 cooldowning straight through:
1st: Pal DP
2nd: Pal Stoneform+Trinkets (and DG macro, since I just learned about that ;) )
Druid taunts when convenient.
3rd: Dru CD
4th: Dru CD
Paladin taunts when convenient, repeat.

In 25-man we are more cautious with the burst damage and taunt it split during weak CDs:
1st: Pal DP
2nd: War taunt after application, LS
3rd: War SW
4th: Pal taunt after application, SF+trink+DG etc.
(Repeat)

In the former strategy, all you need to do to prevent the possible reaper gibs is watch the timer and cooldown before it lands. In the latter, the tank receiving the potential gib is not cooldowning at all on every other reaper, and has the potential to die horribly. We had this happen several times to our warrior on Thursday (it may have happened to me too, but AD saved me each time it did... In fact if AD isn't used otherwise, it should be up just in time for every such gib).

By the way, from my observations the initial application is partially resistable but the 60k tick at the end is not (if it were, I should be seeing 10% resists every time due to Shadow Protection instead of full damage). He casts it first-available on a 30 second cooldown, so every 30s like clockwork unless he happens to be casting something else already when it comes up. I'm not sure if he actually has to stop and cast it though, so it might be 30s regardless.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Rhiannon » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:43 am

@OP, I don't see an 8 sec interval in the snippet of log you parsed, just an initial application, followed by an unfortunate melee swing almost 5 seconds later, and the big nuke exactly 5 seconds after initial application.

The tooltip and the actual ability are somewhat at odds with each other. Taking the 10 man version, all it says is:

"Deals 50000 Shadow damage and the caster gains 100% bonus physical damage after 5 sec."

The actual effect breakdown is:

Effect #1 Weapon % Dmg
Value: 50

Effect #2 Apply Aura: Periodic Damage
Value: 50000 every 5 seconds

Regardless of tooltips or effect info, what it actually does is hits you for a not too threatening amount of shadow damage that is resistable, and then five seconds later a massive nuke that isn't mitigated by resistance at all. I don't know if that nuke is mitigated by armor (it appears in my grim reaper as shadow damage, even though not affected by resistance, but I don't know if that's parser error or not).

People in our raids were saying that LK also himself gained a 100% haste buff at this time, though I've not seen it myself, and couldn't see consistent evidence of hasted swings in the few logs I looked through.

The first cast of the ability comes right after the first defile cast in the Valkyr phase, and as they're both 30 second cds they remained synched for quite a while. Other abilities can push back the cast of both though.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Gaffer » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:48 am

Rhiannon wrote:People in our raids were saying that LK also himself gained a 100% haste buff at this time, though I've not seen it myself, and couldn't see consistent evidence of hasted swings in the few logs I looked through.


This is true, and one of the more dangerous parts about the debuff. The initial application of the debuff hits hard, but is relatively easy to heal through. Though it is on a cooldown of 30 seconds and used close to as soon as it comes off, it can be delayed if you are either out of range or the cast conflicts with another one (Defile, Summoning Vile Spirits, Harvesting Soul).

On both our 10 and 25-man kills, we let the initial application of the debuff land without a cooldown. With ~1 second left on the debuff timer, our tank would cooldown so that the Damage After Time effect would be covered as well as the 5-6s of 100% haste. I was primary tank for both of our kills with a Protection Warrior in 25-man and a Feral Druid in 10-man. We plannedthe same cooldown rotation for each:

0:00: My Divine Protection
0:30: My Divine Guardian
1:00: Discipline Priest's Pain Suppression on me
1:30: OT's Shield Wall
2:00: My Divine Protection
2:30: My Divine Guardian
3:00: OT's Last Stand + My Hand of Sacrifice on OT
3:30: OT'S Shield Wall

This rotation can be repeated indefinitely. Any unexpected situations (like your OT getting Harvested - it happened to us on our kill) can be covered with any number of other raid cooldowns (we used a Retribution Paladin's Hand of Sacrifice to easy the initial blow)
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Trase » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:47 pm

A Paladin with sufficient gear and proper talents/glyphs can handle every single Soul Reaper without the need for tank swaps.

Divine Protection
Divine Guardian
Hand of Salvation
Ardent Defender + Stam Trinket Health use and Absorb use.

That was my rotation for our LK 25 kill. My warrior GM wanted to be free to handle stuns and taunts on Vile Spirits and Valkyr, so the above seemed like the most optimal solution for us.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Coratina » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:09 am

If this helps anyone, my guild has our prot warrior spec into a talent which he Intervenes the target and it cases his target to take 30% less damage(Safe Guard maybe?). What we do is have me DP the first SR since he is tanking the last Spirit and then intervene every other SR after. This helps two ways. I take the hit from the initial SR but his intervene takes the next melee swing for me so I don't get gibbed if AD isn't up. If he can't/won't be able to intervene he calls is and we use an external CD from another source. It is also nice to rotate CD's either way.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Worldie » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:16 am

I don't get why people would waste cooldowns on the Soul Reaper, just have the other tank taunt when you get it :|
We've been doing like that from the start and we never had any tank death.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby wingman » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:32 am

Worldie wrote:I don't get why people would waste cooldowns on the Soul Reaper, just have the other tank taunt when you get it :|
We've been doing like that from the start and we never had any tank death.



Well, if your healers are shaky, it's much much easier to pop a cooldown and have your healers spamming heals on you than it is to have the OT taunt and die because the Lich King's damage has been buffed for 5 seconds and the healers are slow to switch big heals from you to your OT.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby Worldie » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:47 am

Healers switching? o.o ever heard of holy paladins?
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby inthedrops » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:23 am

We used to do the taunt after soul reaper is applied thing. But now we just taunt once the first tank is out of cooldowns and BEFORE soul reaper gets applied again. It's just easier and gives you more flexibility. Instead of having to taunt during a 5 second window, you can taunt during a 25 second window.

Personal cooldowns are usually sufficient. Warriors have a couple. I spec so that I have 4, but I keep AD up for emergencies so ask the other tank to taunt after I've used three (Divine Protection, Divine Guardian, Salvation Glyph).

Both methods work fine, but after switching to this new method I like it a lot more as a tank.

Disclaimer: We haven't killed 25, only 10.
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Re: [25] Arthas - Soul Reaper

Postby wingman » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:40 am

Worldie wrote:Healers switching? o.o ever heard of holy paladins?



Ever heard of beacon falling off?
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