[10] Rotface

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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:02 pm

Gyute wrote:Sigh.....

37 Wipes and counting..... I am by no means asking for a total nerf and I don't think that it should be a total faceroll but this is getting ridiculous. I would love to see the actual numbers of people that down this guy and if they totally outgear it or if our guild should just hang it up.....

Perhaps I am just an awful kiter, we just need to get really lucky or people cant follow simple directions but for the life of me we cannot get over this hump....

/endrant


If everyone is alive when things start getting hectic, then the DPS is probably lacking. If people are dying well before that, then people aren't playing the mechanics well, aka kiting, cleansing, avoiding bombs, etc.

Normally when things go bad it's better to tell everyone to focus on the mechanics and not on their DPS. Then when it's clear people have the mechanics down they can start worrying about DPS again. Then you get a kill.

It's vague and general advice but it's always a good place to start.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby anowyn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:14 pm

My raid is getting clobbered by this fight. We ended up having one of our DPS go healing and even still we just didn't feel that on top of the fight. Notably, we had predictable breakdown at the first big ooze explosion. So I have some questions:

When the big ooze explodes and sends out the slime bolts, do they land where the players were when it started casting or where they are when it finished casting?

When kiting the big ooze and the quarter you're coming up on floods, what is the best way for other players to get their ooze to merge with the big ooze?

How far into the room does the slime flood go?

I do think the jump in difficulty between this fight and Saurfang or Deathwhisper came as a serious shock to my raid.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Splattage » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:40 pm

Exploding ooze targets : My raid separated after the cast was finished, just had OT call on vent : 'exploding' 'run' 'next infection is 1st in sequence'
dont know that this was exactly necessary but there's plenty of time even waiting for the end of cast time and you need all the dps time you can get

OT in Floods+dropping oozes : Nimble OT is required for this fight, MT just pounds on boss. If you just got into slime bubblewall and reverse direction, if you are mid way through HoFreedom and run remebering that the BigOoze will 'cut the corner' and approach the middle melee if you get too far ahead. You get 12 seconds for the infection so you can wait before dropping the little ooze quite a while if that's preferable to running into flood.

flood size ? how can you answer that question : There is a big melee mosh pit in the middle that is clear the whole time for hunters to attack boss and not get flooded.

Just ran the numbers on the the time between casts of infection and found it to be a strict increasing frequency based on number of casts. NOT boss HP, NOT dependent on Cleanse time. We had 18 attempts sometimes with Bloodlust in beginning, sometimes later, sometimes end, sometimes cleansing as fast as we could, sometimes waiting for it to drop. Series goes: average time between casts as a function of cast#:
13.75 , 13.5 , 20.13 , 11.75 , 11.63 , 11.25 , 17 , 10 , 9.13 , 9.5 , 11.75 , 7.75 , 7.13 , 7.75 , 9.63 , 9.38 , 6.63 , 5.00 , 6.83 , 6.67 , 7.25 , 6.75 , 5.5

Note the cooldown collisions with other abilities on casts 3, 7 and 11.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Passionario » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:53 am

How quickly is he supposed to die in 10-man, anyway?
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby inthedrops » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:46 am

anowyn wrote:When the big ooze explodes and sends out the slime bolts, do they land where the players were when it started casting or where they are when it finished casting?


People should start running when they see the animation of the explosions shooting in the air. No sooner. In other words, run at the end of the cast.

anowyn wrote:When kiting the big ooze and the quarter you're coming up on floods, what is the best way for other players to get their ooze to merge with the big ooze?


Just have them run into the puddle. They're already recieving heals due to the mutation debuff damage. As the kite tank though, do your best to be in positions to reduce this possibility. Sometimes there's little you can do. Another option is to decurse them when they are safe range from the raid but before they get between you and the ooze. They just need to remember that they can't leave until it's merged. This way they can kite the outer edge of the puddle and meet you in a safe spot.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Rothes » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:47 am

My guild is a 10 man only guild we are mostly 232 with a few items higher.

We wiped on this dude like 10 times last night. The best attempt was 20% before everything quickly spiraled out of control.

I am just not sure how you are supposed to do this. I won't say we were perfect on coordination, but even if we were another 20% is a lot when the diseases speed up. Everything I have seen says to ignore the slime floods and run through them. Well more than once I was in a slime flood for at least 2 floods in a row. They kept falling on me. Also if you are in the flood how is the person with the disease supposed to get out to the big slime?

As a side note we did kill Festergut with 20 seconds on the timer. So that is where the dps is at.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Hearthy » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:50 am

Passionario wrote:How quickly is he supposed to die in 10-man, anyway?


I can't say with any authority since we haven't downed it yet, but the median time for a successful kill on World of Logs is 246 seconds.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Chicken » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:42 am

Hearthy wrote:
Passionario wrote:How quickly is he supposed to die in 10-man, anyway?


I can't say with any authority since we haven't downed it yet, but the median time for a successful kill on World of Logs is 246 seconds.
I'd actually say take a look at how long the 25-man kills take, then detract 15% (Due to the health reduction he had). That's assuming you're in a purely 10-man guild. 10-man rankings on such websites tend to be muddied a bit by people who have 25-man quality gear in the 10-man, and a 10-man guild will take longer for their kill. Festergut's a good comparison for this, World of Logs says the 10-man takes 240 seconds as median time, while the 25-man takes 294 seconds. The fight is basically balanced around you being able to kill him just barely within the enrage timer of 5 minutes.

So for an exclusively ten man guild, 290 seconds (So ~4 minutes and 50 seconds) is probably more realistic, the median being closer to 340 seconds for the 25-man guild.
Last edited by Chicken on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby honorshammer » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:46 am

We got him down last night in 4 minutes and 48 seconds. I was Main Tank and my co-Tank kited the Big Oozes. We split DPS, half on each leg and blew heroism/BL right off the bat. It's gets crazy towards the end, but we got him.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Gyute » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:16 am

Hearthy wrote:
Passionario wrote:How quickly is he supposed to die in 10-man, anyway?


I can't say with any authority since we haven't downed it yet, but the median time for a successful kill on World of Logs is 246 seconds.


This seems like the sweet spot when doing the encounter, we just dont have the dps to get it done in 4 min.
After about 4 min 30 there are just too many ozes to deal with.


Assuming a 4 min fight because this is what we are shooting for.
You can assume the dps that is needed for the encounter. Now remember that there is a LOT of movement in this fight so usual dps numbers do not matter.

Rotface has 7.5m HP. (post baindaid fix)
assuming you have 5 dps and one tank on Rotface, and assuming the tank is doing 2k dps, that leaves 7,020,000 health for the dps to deal with.
This means that dps all must be at 5,850dps for the fight, again assuming none die....

Now, if you were to two heal it, things change a little better for the dps but healers have a lot of ground to cover.
Dps now need ot only pull about 4,875dps for a four min fight but the healers are gona have a really tough time of it.

We have now wiped a total of 48 times on rotface and cant wait to get back in this week and try it again. Hopfully with some better gear and a fresh start :D
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby bzzt » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:10 am

2 healing makes the fight much much more manageable (and honestly isn't that hard for the first 3ish minutes).

Something else I was mulling while watching my one group's resto druid wander all over the place on this fight is has anyone kited using a resto druid? He's got roots for the initial ooze, taunt for emergencies, and very solid sustained threat while mobile (it seems like he's the one the tank is fighting with for the ooze's attention anyway).

That would give you 7 dps on the boss (4167 dps req'd for the 4 minute kill), or a very manageable ~3 min 20 second kill if your 7 dps could each manage 5k with lust for 20+% of the fight (it really only heats up around 3 minutes). If you wanted it even more stable, you could 3 heal it with him kiting and still have 6 dps on the boss for the times in the above post, I suspect he'd need a tricks or an MD or at least some cooperation by your other healers though since there's not likely enough damage early on for him to reliably hold threat with 3 healers (he's going to be more useful than a tank out there even if he's occasionally distracted by non-healing related things).

I dunno, it just got me thinking after a couple of times watching our resto druid on the fight "Why don't I just have him kite if he's going to wander out there anyway?" That group killed it before we tried it, but it seems like it would be worth a shot if you've got a pro resto druid around.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Rofladin » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:07 pm

We're in the same boat of people who are having major trouble with this guy. We cleared Festergut on our third attempt, so this guy came as a serious shock. We wiped for two hours straight the other night and only got him to around 34%. The general consensus was that Festergut was a decent challenge, but this guy was just a brick wall. Our raid is in mainly ToC25 and ICC10 gear, with a few ToC10 and ToGC10 pieces. We definitely don't overgear the encounter, but he shouldn't be this difficult for us.

As far as I can tell, we've got several problems we need to address, the major one being situational awareness on the part of the healers and DPS. We did everything we could to get the raid to find the OT -- we marked him, called out his position on Vent, whatever -- but people still had trouble finding him. I witnessed a couple people literally run a circle around the boss. Many, many times they ran their little ooze into the big ooze and dropped dead. We switched to three healers, to deal with the incredible amounts of damage people were taking, but it didn't help. Situational awareness seems to be a huge problem among a select few of our members, and I'm just not sure what to do about it. It's hurt us in other fights, as well. I've stressed that everyone needs to know what's going on around them, and how to accomplish their objectives (in this case, kiting their ooze, or bringing themselves to the OT to be cleansed), but a few people still rely on others calling things out in Vent. I don't personally think we'd have made it through the last 30% with the dearth of DPS caused by three healers, anyway.

The other problem was that the kiting was really hectic. I think our OT had a lot of really, really bad luck with the slime pools. They always seemed to spawn in front of him, and he had to change direction, causing the slime to cut through the raid. Our healers said that they kept getting aggro from the big ooze, especially our resto shaman (our priest said she just faded it off). I only tried the OT role once, on the last attempt of the night, and didn't get a chance to get a good feel for it. To the best of my limited knowledge, it seems like you can melee the big ooze to build threat during the first stack, and after that it should stick to you. Avenger's Shield and Exorcism are gravy.

Well, hopefully we get some more attempts in tonight. If not, then we will tomorrow night. It was a fun fight, but really frustrating to see people running around while diseased or with an ooze on them, unable to find the OT. I'm going to try letting the DoT run its course instead of having it cleansed off, and see if that cuts down on our raid damage and on the overall hectic nature of this encounter. I'm especially keen to try OTing to see if I can bring anything new to the table.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Shathus » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:14 pm

One thing i've found that helps (or at least the raid said it helped) was when kiting, when i saw the disease announcement, i would tell people where i am on the mini-map (North, southwest, northeast, etc) over vent. So would give them a better idea of where to find me instead of running around screaming like fools :) and/Or to look for the pink dot around the edges of the room.

Definitely that last 10% get crazy. I think i was kiting 2 big oozes, plus there being a couple little ones running around and 5 people dead.
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby Arcia » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:31 am

Rofladin wrote:As far as I can tell, we've got several problems we need to address, the major one being situational awareness on the part of the healers and DPS. We did everything we could to get the raid to find the OT -- we marked him, called out his position on Vent, whatever -- but people still had trouble finding him. I witnessed a couple people literally run a circle around the boss.


My guild is in the same boat.

What worked for us was to tell them to calm down, its not the end of the world getting the infection, dont start running until you found the OT.
I had to tell everyone this several times but finally people started to listen (until the end ofc when he throws infections all over the place)

Havent killed him yet but I feel confident that we are gonna kill him tonight, one issue we are having is that people are taking to long merging the little ooze with the big ooze because they are really afraid of taking his aoe damage so they are running to far infront of him.

Tonight we are gonna try the following, just telling everyone to run straight INTO the big ooze (cleansing them as soon as they leave the raid) to merge it instantly.

Hopefully this will increase the dps on the boss by quite abit since they can go back to dps the boss much faster.

They might take abit more damage by doing this but I think it should be managable.

I'll let you guys know how it worked out afterwards :)
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Re: [10] Rotface

Postby glorfindell » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:16 am

Having only tried this fight about 5 times last week on 10's, we killed it on our 4th attempt this week. I had hoped to try the 2 healing strat bzzt suggested, but unfortunately none of our 3 healers came to the raid with a dps spec. :?

Our second attempt with me kiting had us wipe at 6%, the mutagens were going out quick enough that two combined into a second big ooze in the melee group and it killed half the raid before I could pick it up. The extra dps of 2 healing would have probably led to a kill that attempt.

Since we couldn't 2 heal the fight, we decided to have the hunter kite oozes (while dpsing the boss as often as possible) while I strapped on my ret set. The hunter let the ooze get too close and melee him on the first attempt like this, but the second was a very smooth and pretty easy kill. The hunter managed to both kite the oozes and do about 700k dmg to the boss, which obviously solved the problem of those <10% wipes.

I'd still be more comfortable with 2 healing the fight and having a tank kiting just for a bigger health cushion in case something went wrong. But if you are having dps issues on this fight and aren't comfortable with 2 healing, I'd suggest giving this strat a try if you have a skilled hunter.
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