[25] Rotface

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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Argali » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:45 am

fafhrd wrote:The rest of the wing needs 2 tanks though. So unless you're replacing the tank with a good DPSer for that one fight and having the hunter DPS the boss while kiting, you're not gaining anything having a hunter kite slimes. Maybe if your only choice for slime kiting is a warrior it'd be better to have a hunter do it since warrior ranged threat is kinda poor (basically shockwave, taunt and a rare heroic throw), but just about any other class of tank is fine for it.


Min maxing/world first/ if you wipe 15x/heroic mode warrants a player change. But yeah, normal mode, doesn't matter much I guess.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Trav » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:49 pm

Anybody know how the infection frequency increase works? Is it a gradual thing, or is it "at X point in time, it goes from 22 to 16 seconds, at Y time to 12, at Z time to 6?"
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Steve » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:02 pm

From my logs, it looks like it goes from 15 to 12 to 10 to 8 to 6.

You can check in your own logs by using the following expression in the expression editor in World of Logs:

spell="Mutated Infection" and fulltype=SPELL_AURA_APPLIED

It's definitely gradual, but beyond that I can't say for certain without comparing multiple attempts.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby glorfindell » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:24 am

fafhrd wrote:The rest of the wing needs 2 tanks though. So unless you're replacing the tank with a good DPSer for that one fight and having the hunter DPS the boss while kiting, you're not gaining anything having a hunter kite slimes. Maybe if your only choice for slime kiting is a warrior it'd be better to have a hunter do it since warrior ranged threat is kinda poor (basically shockwave, taunt and a rare heroic throw), but just about any other class of tank is fine for it.


We ended up having our hunter kite for our kill on 10 man, since none of our healers had a dps offspec and I have a strong ret set. In 10 man the extra 700k damage the hunter was able to put onto the boss while kiting made all the difference, but for 25 man I don't think that extra half a dps'er on the boss isn't going to make a big enough difference to be worth the risk of having your kiter being one-shottable by an ooze melee swing.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Rojhaz » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:49 am

Epimer wrote:This is related to whether or not the rate of ooze spawns is increasing with time or at set boss % health; which of the two it is will affect when you want to use Heroism. On our kill we used it just after the pull, primarily because we were having some execution issues and wanted to make sure everybody was alive to make use of it. We had a few <2% wipes before then.

We BL at the beginning due to more people being on the boss. Regardless of time or hp based spawns they're always going to get down to 6 sec and later in the fight there are fewer people that can take advantage of BL by having to run infection.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Araiken » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:07 pm

We killed this two weeks in a row in 25 man. I'm the OT kiting, dispelling, yelling at idiot wtf to run because they obviously cant see me raid marked and the giant ass ooze. However I am wondering if any one has any tips to deal with the oozes below 30% because they are spawning real fast and don't seem to combine with the big ooze. Then its just a giant cluster of oozes every where and not combining >.>
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:01 am

Regarding the "have someone else kite" thing, we had a really sloppy kill this week, with 2 big slimes up at some point, and a resto druid pro-actively picked one up and started kiting it, slowly bringing it over to our pally tank kiter to pick up. Theoretically, this should work fairly well, since a resto can do some burst threat to pick up in caster form, then maintain threat while healing in tree form and running around. It's obviously more demanding than having a hunter or ideally a pally/dk do it, but you get a full-time DPSer instead of the tank, and you theoretically don't lose much (if anything) in terms of healing.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Drunknelf » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:46 pm

We made one attempt to have our bear druid stand and tank the big Oozes last night. In about 1 min, before the big ooze ever exploded, He had taken over 4 million damage. Unless your healers are much much better than ours are I can not recommend this strat to anyone. Tanking the big ooze is incredibly healing intensive and completely not a viable strat at a normal level of gearing.

We kited the adds around like normal, but split into 4 groups around the boss. We healed through the slime spray. Also make sure that when you move out to avoid the slime explosion, keep your DPS on the boss as much as possible. you can even have people stack on the tank since he stops attacking when casting slime spray. The biggest thing is people have to be less retarded than usual and learn to take the shortest path to the big ooze instead of chasing it for 10-15 secs.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Dianora » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:58 pm

Splug wrote:I'm still trying to decide if it's worth sending a hunter off to do the big ooze kiting. They have all the tools available, and an easier time with both generating threat and getting clear while at range.

Having done the encounter on 25 with my death knight, and 10 on both the warrior and death knight, I will say that retaining control on the death knight was far simpler, but establishing it was not. Icebound Fortitude is available for a ~5-10 second hard-tank when the first and third oozes spawned, but I don't have it available for the second one, and Unbreakable Armor + Trinkets + Guardian Spirit is far, far riskier. Hand of Sacrifice would probably tip the scales though; I'll have to remember that.

-Splug


We had a hunter doing the kiting before we switched me to doing dps. The hunter does way more dps than I do in my ret gear. And I easily have twice the amount of health he has, not to mention I run 15% faster, and can run through oozes with ease.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Belloc » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:38 pm

So, for people who haven't considered an alternative strategy (especially those that are low on DPS), here you go:

MT in the center, as always.
OT kiting.
Another OT/a ranged DPS.

MT does their thing, OT kites, like always, and the extra OT/ranged DPS collects big oozes from the raid stack.

Essentially, you let two little oozes form and combine and then you have someone pull it out to the OT. The OT will taunt it and kite it. If they already have a big ooze, they'll taunt it and merge them. Bam, you've doubled the amount of time it takes to get a big ooze to 5 stacks. You've also removed the need for the raid to run out to you, allowing them to continue DPSing the boss full-time. The first time we tried this, we got the boss to 50% before the first big ooze exploded -- without heroism.

Generally speaking, the big ooze puller will probably be a hunter. Simply spam some shots on it and get a solid threat lead, which the kiter will assume when they taunt. If using a third tank, that tank can simply sit in the middle and DPS it when it spawns and then run out either when it becomes active or shortly before. Both ways work.

We never killed him on 25-man using this strat... primarily because we never evolved it to this point. My original version of this strategy simply involved me taunting and avenger shielding/exorcisming the big oozes in the raid stack. We quite often had our MT pulling aggro with consecration and hammer of the righteous... and when he wasn't doing it, a warrior DPS was. Either calling out for a stop to all AOE or adding an ooze puller will fix this problem, as per the strat above. I am going to use this next week so we can get a fast kill (and maybe modify it a bit to get the achievement).
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby warden » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:39 am

So guys, this almost feels like a necro, pulling this thread off of page 2, but I need a hand here. We're stuck on rotface 25 in our semi-serious 25s, and its becoming incredibly frusterating. Our best attemps usually wipe around 10%, with average ones around 20-25%. Things tend to just go to hell in a handbasket shortly after the first big ooze explodes. Our core problems:

People finding the big ooze and merging fast enough after the 6 second point.
A slow "finder" and a fast "finder" getting the infection, and the fast guy catching the slow guy, creating a 2nd big ooze.
People panicing when it gets crazy (I've had several people tell me they do this).
If is isn't enough, the 2nd or 3rd big ooze explosion usually gets people.

The standard "make people not suck or replace them" probably isn't gonna work here... what I'm looking for is tips that I can do to simplify the execution portion of the fight, even at the expense of making it slightly more difficult gear-wise (many of us are overgeared for this, but can't do anything to help when its not us with the infection). Obviously, as was posted earlier, tanking the big ooze so it is always in the same spot isn't an option here (although I tried it in a lolfarm 10 man just to check).

We usually 5 heal this, sometimes 6, but I don't notice any real appreciable difference between the two... Most deaths occur from stuff that is instant-kill (getting hit by big ooze + slime pool, or exposion), or from massive raid-wide burst like a big ooze spawning right in the middle of the raid. We finally fixed the "standing in slime spray" problem (until about 30%, when people panic and lose focus). Also, we're getting him to about 70% or lower after just the initial hero-burn, if that gives you an idea how fast things are suddenly going to shit later.

For reference, I'm the big ooze kiter on my pally, although I have several other people that can do it just as well as I if needed. We've usually used a warrior MT on rot, but lately switched to another pally tank on him, as the warrior's fury offspec is well over 7k dps and much better than my or the other pally's ret sets.

Tips, Suggestions? I'll do my best to remember to record a WoL parse tonight, but any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm becoming entirely too frusterated with this, and as the RL, I've got a bad feeling that my frusteration is starting to negatively impact the entire raid... We really need to get this down.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Belloc » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:09 am

Add an extra (3rd) tank. Allow all oozes to merge in the middle, have your 2nd tank pick up the first big ooze, grab initial threat (WINGS!) and then kite it around the room. Have your third tank pick up all subsequent big oozes. With an actual tank generating real threat on it as it is spawning, there's no danger of it aggroing a healer (or cleaving melee dps). 2nd tank taunts off 3rd tank and merges 2 big oozes together, instead of little oozes into the big ooze.

This will make it take much longer before getting the first ooze explosion and will allow your DPS to go all out without having to run every time they get an ooze.

But, remember, you NEED to have a tank generating threat as it spawns. When it first spawns, there is a period of time where it will not attack. When it does finally begin attacking, it'll be considerably weaker than a 2 or 3 stack big ooze. If you don't have sufficient threat on it, melee and healers will start dying.

Also, do not let the two big oozes merge in the middle. They should always be merging along the kite path (2 big oozes in the middle = heavy raid damage).

Good luck!
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby warden » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:18 am

Thanks! Let me clarify here:

Merge the first two little oozes as normal. I kite that big ooze like normal. Have the other prot pally stand in the raid, cleanse infections immediately, let the big ooze be created there. He immediately drags that big ooze out of the raid and into the kite path, I taunt it, he goes back to get the next one, and the damage from the big ooze spawning in the raid is healable as long as its dragged out immediately?

If this is correct, I'm really looking forward to trying this. The other prot pally is one of my best, most situationally-aware players, and putting the extra burden on him takes a lot off my mind. He's also a lurker here, and probably reading this. Hi Gran!
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby Belloc » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:52 am

Yup, it sounds like you 100% understand.

The AOE damage from the big ooze is perfectly healable (especially since it only lasts for a few seconds before being pulled out). The only danger is if melee or healers pull aggro, in which case they are dead. If you've got a tank smashing it as soon as it spawns, there's no chance for anyone to pull aggro.

Merging two big oozes will only add a single stack to the existing big ooze. So, now instead of the big ooze blowing up every 5 little oozes, you have a big ooze blowing up every 10 little oozes. With the DPS gain from being allowed to stay in melee range, it's not out of the question to completely avoid a big ooze explosion entirely.
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Re: [25] Rotface

Postby warden » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:18 am

You sir, are a lifesaver. This is exactly what we needed... being able to load a bit more "execution" on a select couple players, at the cost of slightly increased raid damage. I'll let you know how it goes :)
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