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New member here with basic/general questions

Postby Hemiolia » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:04 pm

I'm sorry I couldn't be more descriptive in my title.

I'd like to preface this post by saying that before I discovered this site, I've directed all of my questions to gamefaqs.com. I can never get a serious answer from what appears to be a site full of "kids" who have nothing better to do than to flame other members. I've never seen anyone make any disparaging remarks about another's post - no matter how basic the question may seem. I sincerely appreciate that.

A little about me: I'm a newcomer to WoW. This is my first character I've created, which I just dinged to lvl. 70 today. I've speced Protection at level 55 and have enjoyed taking (or trying to, at least) since then. As I progress through the more difficult instances, I am finding it harder to grab aggro.

I have several random, but basic questions with regard to being an effective and efficient tank.

1. How exactly did you learn the mechanics of being a protection Paladin? Everything I have learned thus far has been from snide, disparaging remarks from others in the group telling me to do something a certain way. I once had a very pleasant Druid walk me through an instance back when I was lvl. 55, spending hours explaining and demonstrating to me what it means to be a tank. Unfortunately, his limited knowledge of the Paladin class has limited my being able to absorb certain class-specific functions relevant to being a tank.

2. Is it possible to get gear worthy of heroic runs without having to engage in PvP battle? I have never gotten into PvP much and would rather spend countless hours grinding to get exalted with a certain faction in order to get a particular piece of gear, than to PvP. I'll do it, if need be, but prefer not to.

3. How do Paladin tanks effectively handle CC? When there are a group of say 7+ mobs you are expected to tank, and a hunter wants to trap, a mage wants to sheep and a rogue wants to sap, how do you selectively tank the remaining mobs - especially if they tend to scatter around despite your efforts?

4. Up until several levels ago, I used to stalk the AH for any 1H weapons (that I could use) that had the highest DPS, at which point I was told (however rudely) that I was going about it the wrong way. Since then, I've been using a weapon I got in Slave Pens (or UnderBog, I can't remember which) that had +spelldmg. As a present to myself for reaching 70, I bought myself via the AH, the Crystalforged Sword as shown in my armory:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Hemiolia

By the way, any constructive criticism to my gear/build is greatly appreciated. Are there any other weapons currently available besides what I have on now, not BoP, I may be able to find in the AH that would better serve my needs?

5. Soloing single mobs of the same level takes an upwards of 35 or so seconds to kill, more if I am taking on more than one and using AoE's and damage mitigation. Should it take this long? How do I kill mobs faster if not?

6. If you look at my armory, you can see that I've been concentrating on +spelldmg gear as opposed to anything defense related. I understand the mechanics behind getting to a certain number defense, but I also understand that a bonus to spell damage is what's needed to manage aggro. Am I going about this the wrong way?

7. Now that I am lvl. 70, I am interested in solidifying my talent tree build. As you can see from my armory, I put 10 points into Holy for the additional intellect and strength. I know there is a "textbook" build out there that combines points in protection and retribution. What are the points and where exactly would a lvl. 70 would put them?

Those are the questions I have for now. Any help/advice I can get would be greatly appreciated.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:24 pm

A lot of the people on these boards have played Paladins and/or tanks since before the first expansion, they've learned through trial, error and the sharing of knowledge how things like the combat table and critical strikes/crushing blows work and how they can be avoided.

First of all, don't worry too much about spelldamage. Your Crystalforged Sword will give you a solid base spelldamage, and you should add to that some parts of the Paladin Dungeon set (Righteous Armor).

Your first duty as a tank is to eliminate the chance of any burst damage. If you want to be a Heroic Tank, you need to get your Defense up to 485. This will eliminate Critical Strikes from pretty much any mob that isn't a raid-level boss.

After that, aim to get a decent pool of health, about 12k health and maybe 13k armor unbuffed are decent numbers to aim for to start the easier heroics.

After that, try and build up your defensive stats, that's your block, parry and dodge. This will work to reduce your incoming damage.

I can reccomend getting your hands on the Felsteel set items. They have decent Defense, Armor and Stamina and sockets to stack even more armor. Run Steamvaults and Botanica for your Righteous Chest and Shoulders, along with some other sweet tanking upgrades.

When you have a decent set of all-blue tanking gear fully gemmed and enchanted, then you can probably look at Heroics.
Last edited by ulushnar on Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New member here with basic/general questions

Postby ulushnar » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:27 pm

Hemiolia wrote:7. Now that I am lvl. 70, I am interested in solidifying my talent tree build. As you can see from my armory, I put 10 points into Holy for the additional intellect and strength. I know there is a "textbook" build out there that combines points in protection and retribution. What are the points and where exactly would a lvl. 70 would put them?


Missed this before. Strength and Intellect are pretty much useless to the tanking paladin.

This is a good discussion of the "core" tanking talents:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=5880
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Re: New member here with basic/general questions

Postby Marker » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:38 am

Hemiolia wrote:2. Is it possible to get gear worthy of heroic runs without having to engage in PvP battle? I have never gotten into PvP much and would rather spend countless hours grinding to get exalted with a certain faction in order to get a particular piece of gear, than to PvP. I'll do it, if need be, but prefer not to.


Definately. You'll actually get most of your gear from outside of BGs. There's only a few items from BG farming that's really worth it (maybe a bit more viable even, now that the S2 gladiator gear is available for honour just around the corner):
S2 Gavel as tanking weapon
S2 Lamellar Shoulders
S2 shield.

For everything else your basically gonna have to grind your way through normals/rep to get, before entering HCs. Sadly, warrior and paladin tanks are the only classes than is forced to do normals for gear, so getting group can be a realy pain. However, it's good training in front of the HCs and if you focus on learning to tank, it's a super way to improve your skills, rather that DPS classes that hang out in BG and don't have a clue as to optimize PVE dmg and end up playing every instance AV-burst-damage-style.

Hemiolia wrote:3. How do Paladin tanks effectively handle CC? When there are a group of say 7+ mobs you are expected to tank, and a hunter wants to trap, a mage wants to sheep and a rogue wants to sap, how do you selectively tank the remaining mobs - especially if they tend to scatter around despite your efforts?

Try to CC or Line-of-Sight pull casters. After a while you will see that less and less CC is needed. It's just sweet when you get to finish your first full Shattered Halls AoE run without any CC :)

Just make sure you pull way back and give your groups time to CC and consecrate somewhere safe.
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Postby caboom » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:04 am

u need to read this 1st: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... ic.php?t=7 , it explains very well how ur supposed to tank something and how r u supossed to gear up, then besides the gear lists try to read most of the other stickies on these forums, to getmore info on what should you do, gem your items for stamina and defensive stats, and nevermind the socket bonuses in some of ur gear's places(ye u can use the different color gems in a socket, you just lose the socket bonus, as i've found out recently aswell XD), that should boost ur survivability alot. You have too much spell dmg(410 unbuffed) or at least it looks that way to me, try to get also stamina and defensive stats items. It's weird that u say u still lose agro with that kind of spell dmg going on, so u should be looking at the way you do your skills rotations and what skills you use aswell. In you protection spell book look up the skill Spiritual Atunnement and u'll notice why u don't need intellect items at all when tanking and beeing backed up by a healer. ;)
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Postby Hemiolia » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:12 am

Awesome- these are great advices! Looks like I've been going about a few things the wrong way. Looking forward to changing them.

Keep the suggestions coming! :wink:

Thanks very much!
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Postby caboom » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:29 am

another thing i've just noticed was ur mushroom trinket, it gives u 200 mana when a mob dies, and u spend like what ? 2-3k or more from a pull with 3-4 mobs ? it's totally useless imho, if u still have it get : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28042 instead.
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Postby heed » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:38 am

1. I played a prot paladin since the game was released, even though everyone (correctly) told me it was stupid. :) Basically just do instances all the time, practice makes perfect.

2. The only items you can get from pvp are the mace and the shield. Get them if you want to, pvp is painful as protection though.

3. I've made this very nice picture of your group and 5 mobs, hope it's understandable. Yes i was bored :)
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What you see is you on the bottom left, a mage, then a hunter. The red guy is a rogue sapping. The 5 remaining are mobs.
You don't want to hit the sapped mob or the guy the hunter is trapping with your shield, so pick the ones on the side for that. Have the rogue sap first, then pull with your shield hitting the 3 mobs on the left. Right after you pull, have the hunter pull his guy to the trap, and the mage sheep his target. The two remaining guys will come over to you, where you can aoe away without hitting anyone else.
The tricky part is if they are casters. If they are, you can pull them to you by stepping behind a wall or something, so they can't see you.
Even trickier is getting your dps to not start dpsing until the mobs are at you :)
Eventually as you get better gear, you'll need less and less CC, finally you wont need any at all.

4. That sword is excellent, with a +40 spell enchant it will last you a while.
As for talents, your protection choices are ok, but the points in holy are pretty much wasted. Both int and strength are almost useless for us. I would reccomend this build http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVhtIx0dMgqtVbx.

5. It does take a long time as protection, unfortunately. If you need money, you can try farming the supplicants outside black temple. There should be a thread on it somewhere on this forum.

6. For the earlier content, the spelldamage on your weapon alone should be enough. From the AH you can get the felsteel set and bracers of the green fortress. Other good items are the neck from CE rep, shoulders from botanica, chest from mechanar, belt from the arcatraz quest chain, boots from the mana tombs quest...

Good luck
Last edited by heed on Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New member here with basic/general questions

Postby killgannon » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:51 am

Hemiolia wrote:
3. How do Paladin tanks effectively handle CC? When there are a group of say 7+ mobs you are expected to tank, and a hunter wants to trap, a mage wants to sheep and a rogue wants to sap, how do you selectively tank the remaining mobs - especially if they tend to scatter around despite your efforts?



http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27173


but yeah, what the others said
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Re: New member here with basic/general questions

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:27 am

Hemiolia wrote:1. How exactly did you learn the mechanics of being a protection Paladin? Everything I have learned thus far has been from snide, disparaging remarks from others in the group telling me to do something a certain way. I once had a very pleasant Druid walk me through an instance back when I was lvl. 55, spending hours explaining and demonstrating to me what it means to be a tank. Unfortunately, his limited knowledge of the Paladin class has limited my being able to absorb certain class-specific functions relevant to being a tank.

I just searched and searched >.< Eventually I came here.
Hemiolia wrote:2. Is it possible to get gear worthy of heroic runs without having to engage in PvP battle? I have never gotten into PvP much and would rather spend countless hours grinding to get exalted with a certain faction in order to get a particular piece of gear, than to PvP. I'll do it, if need be, but prefer not to.

There are a few pvp items worthy grinding for if you don't mind, namely weapon and shield.
Hemiolia wrote:3. How do Paladin tanks effectively handle CC? When there are a group of say 7+ mobs you are expected to tank, and a hunter wants to trap, a mage wants to sheep and a rogue wants to sap, how do you selectively tank the remaining mobs - especially if they tend to scatter around despite your efforts?

Ideally, we don't handle CC. We just tank it all at once(Consecration). If CC is absolutely necessary, it must be applied before the mob reaches your consecration. Eventually you learn how close you can be without breaking cc with consecration.
Hemiolia wrote:
4. Up until several levels ago, I used to stalk the AH for any 1H weapons (that I could use) that had the highest DPS, at which point I was told (however rudely) that I was going about it the wrong way. Since then, I've been using a weapon I got in Slave Pens (or UnderBog, I can't remember which) that had +spelldmg. As a present to myself for reaching 70, I bought myself via the AH, the Crystalforged Sword as shown in my armory:

Weapon DPS is irrelevant for palatanking. As is any kind of melee stat(crit, str, attack power).
Hemiolia wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Hemiolia

By the way, any constructive criticism to my gear/build is greatly appreciated. Are there any other weapons currently available besides what I have on now, not BoP, I may be able to find in the AH that would better serve my needs?

5. Soloing single mobs of the same level takes an upwards of 35 or so seconds to kill, more if I am taking on more than one and using AoE's and damage mitigation. Should it take this long? How do I kill mobs faster if not?

Farming-wise, prot paladins typically pull as many mobs as they can handle without dieing, and keep their mana/health up with seal of wisdom/light. The whole point is: it takes 30 seconds to kill 1 mob, 31 to kill 2, 32 to kill 3... It "scales" well =)
Hemiolia wrote:6. If you look at my armory, you can see that I've been concentrating on +spelldmg gear as opposed to anything defense related. I understand the mechanics behind getting to a certain number defense, but I also understand that a bonus to spell damage is what's needed to manage aggro. Am I going about this the wrong way?

Yes and no. Initially your goal is to survive, and specially at your gear level, a spell damage weapon with a +40 spell damage enchant is more than enough, threat-wise.
Hemiolia wrote:7. Now that I am lvl. 70, I am interested in solidifying my talent tree build. As you can see from my armory, I put 10 points into Holy for the additional intellect and strength. I know there is a "textbook" build out there that combines points in protection and retribution. What are the points and where exactly would a lvl. 70 would put them?

No tanking build takes points in the holy tree. Check our guides for more info about it.
Hemiolia wrote:Those are the questions I have for now. Any help/advice I can get would be greatly appreciated.

Welcome, and read our stickies in Basic Training :p That's the first place you should go to for now.
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Re: New member here with basic/general questions

Postby Kyrael » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am

Marker wrote:Definately. You'll actually get most of your gear from outside of BGs. There's only a few items from BG farming that's really worth it (maybe a bit more viable even, now that the S2 gladiator gear is available for honour just around the corner):
S2 Gavel as tanking weapon
S2 Lamellar Shoulders
S2 shield.


You might want to add the 2 minute pvp trinket to that list, actually.

I use mine from time to time, on fights like Nightbane. Not a must-have right away, but something you absolutely want to get at some point anyway.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:02 am

caboom wrote:u need to read this 1st: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... ic.php?t=7


That was my biggest help. I think I read through that thing about 7 times while sitting up here at work (this is well before I found Maintankadin) deciding whether or not to play a pally tank. When I was convinced it was a very technical class to play and it's AOE abilities I had to take it.
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Postby DarkStarr » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:02 am

althought i only recently dinged 70 myself i have been fortunate enough to be in a guild with a Protadin MT and he has talked me though alot of the basics, once he thought i had learn the basics he send me to the maintankadin temple(this site) to futher my studies

From what i understand so far you should first look to getting 485-490 defence, then work on block/dodge/parry (there is an excelent guide in the gear forum on this) the reasons are as follows

Defence lowers you chance to be criticaly hit (2x damage) from a Mob at 490 no mob in game can criticaly hit you (IMPORTANT NOTE this applies solely to melle caster can and will still crit you)

The combination of block/parry and dodge build you towards uncrushablity, removing the chance of a crushing blow (1.5x damage) this is a harder one to get BUT paladins have a natual advantage with Holy shild as this adds 30% to your block chance, in the marcos forum there is a pre written macro to display your current percent of uncrushablity.

the goal with uncrushablity is a combined level of 102.5% (i think it a little lower but i can remember the decimal point accuratly atm)

after these two about 200 spell damage is all thats needed, so long as you keep up rightous defence as when buffed it increases you holy damage threat (threat caused by your holy spells, which is infact ALL your spells) by 90%

you can find an awsome list for gear in the gear forum, the one your after i think the the 'pre raid' gear list as this wil list the normalinstance gear, on a side note if you have engineering as a skill there is a gear tanking helm you can make (tanktronic goggles) that is pretty damn fantastic.

as for your threat i find this rotaiton works for me

pull using avengers shield - Concercrate (BEFORE the mobs get to you) - holy shild up - seal of rightousness - concercrate - judge and SoR again (have it macro'd) - holy shild

thats roughly it, the most important thing to remember is holy shild stays up, its one of your best aggro generators and it lowers your incomming damage as well, if one of your other spells might interfear with it (as in activeate the global cooldown or mean you have to wait a few more seconds to cast it) then cast holy shield first, wait a few seconds if neccicary for HS to become avalible cast it move on.


thaqtball i have to offer right now, i'm sure most of it is re hashed from the other posters here but i hope it helps
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:26 am

DarkStarr wrote:Defence lowers you chance to be criticaly hit (2x damage) from a Mob at 490 no mob in game can criticaly hit you (IMPORTANT NOTE this applies solely to melle caster can and will still crit you)


Just as information, no mob can crit with spells :)
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Postby Lookit » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:31 pm

Just to elaborate on why the Strength and Intellect talents in the Holy tree aren't worth it for a pally tank:

Strength - increases your Attack Power and increases your shield block value by 1 for every 20 strength.

AP only affects our white damage, which is a completely insignificant portion of our threat. 95+% of our threat comes from holy spells, so wasting itemization points to marginally increase that last 5% just doesn't make sense.

Block value is great, but strength is a tremendously ineffecient way to get it. 1 block value has .65 the itemization cost of 1 strength. This means that the 20 strength on an item it takes to give you 1 BV could have just been 30 pure BV! Much better to just get gear that has pure BV on it.

So since it's unwise to stack much strength on your gear, it's especially unwise to pick up a talent that increases your strength by a percentage. Let's say that the average pally tank has (at most) 140 strength. Spending 5 talent points in that case will get you 14 strength, which equals 28 attack power, which equals exactly 2 extra dps. Since it's not holy damage, that's just 2 threat per second as well. Going from 654 TPS to 656 TPS is just not worth 5 talent points.

Intellect - This suffers from much the same problem. Namely, it's just not wise to stack it, so you therefore get very little benefit from getting 10% more. Pally tanks get their mana from Spiritual Attunement, so stacking much Int is just not necessary. Furthermore, many excellent tanking pieces don't have any Int on them at all. The only decent tanking pieces you will find with Int are typically the Tiered sets, so that will generally be the extent of your increases mana pool.

In my gear (16.4k health unbuffed, 105% uncrushable) I have about 130 intellect. This means an extra 10% would be 13 int, or 195 mana. That is simply not worth 5 uber-valuable talent points.

Holy pallys, on the other hand, get great benefit from Divine Intellect because they have 400-500+ intellect and they need as much mana as possible because they aren't getting steady heals to proc Spiritual Attunement. They also benefit greatly from the increases spell crit that Int gives, because they get mana back when their heals crit.

Same thing with Ret pallies and Divine Strength - they're already stacking as much STR as they can, so they get a lot more benefit from 10% more.


Whew, that was way more than I set out to say about T1 holy talents, but oh well :P
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