ret pally trying to convert to prot

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ret pally trying to convert to prot

Postby kaldarom » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:31 pm

hi all, just registered and this seems like a great place to start off.

so yeah, im lvl 65 and have been a ret pally all my lvling life, and this is proving to be quite a challenge, for sure not as easy as i thought.

SO on to my main problems, im having one hell of a time remembering what all skills to use and when. also what seals\judgements to use when. and a blessing is kinda iffy as mana is a huge problem atm.

also im looking for a new UI as it seems the WOW one isn't cutting it anymore, and also usefull addons would be greatly appreciated. i have a threat tracking mod thing now and yeah, im hardly ever on the top of the list....

any help would be greatly appreciated. ive read around a bit and read some of the guide and stuff but meh....none of it really clicks yet...

~@~bob
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Re: ret pally trying to convert to prot

Postby caboom » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:32 pm

kaldarom wrote:hi all, just registered and this seems like a great place to start off.

so yeah, im lvl 65 and have been a ret pally all my lvling life, and this is proving to be quite a challenge, for sure not as easy as i thought.

SO on to my main problems, im having one hell of a time remembering what all skills to use and when. also what seals\judgements to use when. and a blessing is kinda iffy as mana is a huge problem atm.

also im looking for a new UI as it seems the WOW one isn't cutting it anymore, and also usefull addons would be greatly appreciated. i have a threat tracking mod thing now and yeah, im hardly ever on the top of the list....

any help would be greatly appreciated. ive read around a bit and read some of the guide and stuff but meh....none of it really clicks yet...

~@~bob


read more :)

a great place to start with is Gestalt's 101 guide, in the stickies, it explains alotta things regarding how to play what skills to use, once u've understood and tested out everything there try read the stickies in the other forums.

when all is gonna make sense, to you everything is gonna start clicking ingame aswell, and u'll notice things going your way, don't expect to be a god in 2 days cuz it doesn't work that way, it takes a while to do things right, and it all depends on u.
Last edited by caboom on Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kylone » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:34 pm

Well, to give you a basic idea:

General pull:
Cast Seal of Righteousness (before the pull)
<have party CC as needed>
Cast Avenger's Shield (41 pt Protection talent) at the Main Target
<here's the basic Threat cycle:
* Judge Righteousness, and Immediately recast Seal of Righteousness
* Cast Holy Shield (31 pt Protection Talent)
* Cast Consecration

< you can slide in a debuff Judgement as needed--that is Crusader, Light, Wisdom, or Justice >
<You mainly recover mana--your so-called "Blue Rage Bar"-- by being healed by the groups healer. >


The Tankadin mod (mentioned in the respective forum, is pretty good at presenting info. I personally use Bongos and x-perl for my UI.


How's that, for starters?
Last edited by kylone on Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Seloei » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:36 pm

If there was a paragraph that would explain everything and anything about any class, this game wouldn't be so fun.

The stickies on this forum quite literally give you a broad understanding on what prot tanking/gearing is all about. Anything else comes with experience. Don't make the mistake of going for a "warrior approach" or a "pure paladin approach" you need to find the fine line between those two when gearing.
What seals/spells to use when and how is all situational, near cc don't consecrate, when to los pull, when to stun, who to mark etc.

It's not easy and thats half the fun of it, but once you've figured out the "basics" it comes quite fun.

Oh err... that was talking about heroics, raid tanking is a "bit" more complicated and takes a lot of practice, it isn't undoable but to go from "holy/ret -> prot" without ever trying it in a raid can lead to some quite bad results (fast deaths, low threat, lots of cc breakage etc)

edit: but a "quick" rotation to get into in heroics.

before the pull : Seal of righteousness
pull : Avenger's shield, CC the mobs if need be, when they reach you and no cc is near you, consecrate, judge, reseal, holy shield
consec -> judge/reseal spam, holy shield is optional and potentially a man a hog in heroics, since the trash doesn't crush and if you don't have a huge BV/BR set going isn't going to help. Sure it reduces damage intake by a hefty deal but going oom isn't going to help you.
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Postby kaldarom » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:19 pm

caboom wrote:
kaldarom wrote:hi all, just registered and this seems like a great place to start off.

so yeah, im lvl 65 and have been a ret pally all my lvling life, and this is proving to be quite a challenge, for sure not as easy as i thought.

SO on to my main problems, im having one hell of a time remembering what all skills to use and when. also what seals\judgements to use when. and a blessing is kinda iffy as mana is a huge problem atm.

also im looking for a new UI as it seems the WOW one isn't cutting it anymore, and also usefull addons would be greatly appreciated. i have a threat tracking mod thing now and yeah, im hardly ever on the top of the list....

any help would be greatly appreciated. ive read around a bit and read some of the guide and stuff but meh....none of it really clicks yet...

~@~bob


read more :)

a great place to start with is Gestalt's 101 guide, in the stickies, it explains alotta things regarding how to play what skills to use, once u've understood and tested out everything there try read the stickies in the other forums.

when all is gonna make sense, to you everything is gonna start clicking ingame aswell, and u'll notice things going your way, don't expect to be a god in 2 days cuz it doesn't work that way, it takes a while to do things right, and it all depends on u.


alright ill check it out, and as for the being a god part in 2 days....i knew that but i sure as hell didn't think i would suck as bad as i do :?

kylone wrote:Well, to give you a basic idea:

General pull:
Cast Seal of Righteousness (before the pull)
<have party CC as needed>
Cast Avenger's Shield (41 pt Protection talent) at the Main Target
<here's the basic Threat cycle:
* Judge Righteousness, and Immediately recast Seal of Righteousness
* Cast Holy Shield (31 pt Protection Talent)
* Cast Consecration

< you can slide in a debuff Judgement as needed--that is Crusader, Light, Wisdom, or Justice >
<You mainly recover mana--your so-called "Blue Rage Bar"-- by being healed by the groups healer. >


The Tankadin mod (mentioned in the respective forum, is pretty good at presenting info. I personally use Bongos and x-perl for my UI.


How's that, for starters?


hmm. i have been kinda doing something like that, but using seal of the crusader instead then spam conc\holy shield, and use seal of wisdom if my mana gets like ~1k, is that wrongish? =\

Seloei wrote:If there was a paragraph that would explain everything and anything about any class, this game wouldn't be so fun.

The stickies on this forum quite literally give you a broad understanding on what prot tanking/gearing is all about. Anything else comes with experience. Don't make the mistake of going for a "warrior approach" or a "pure paladin approach" you need to find the fine line between those two when gearing.
What seals/spells to use when and how is all situational, near cc don't consecrate, when to los pull, when to stun, who to mark etc.

It's not easy and thats half the fun of it, but once you've figured out the "basics" it comes quite fun.

Oh err... that was talking about heroics, raid tanking is a "bit" more complicated and takes a lot of practice, it isn't undoable but to go from "holy/ret -> prot" without ever trying it in a raid can lead to some quite bad results (fast deaths, low threat, lots of cc breakage etc)

edit: but a "quick" rotation to get into in heroics.

before the pull : Seal of righteousness
pull : Avenger's shield, CC the mobs if need be, when they reach you and no cc is near you, consecrate, judge, reseal, holy shield
consec -> judge/reseal spam, holy shield is optional and potentially a man a hog in heroics, since the trash doesn't crush and if you don't have a huge BV/BR set going isn't going to help. Sure it reduces damage intake by a hefty deal but going oom isn't going to help you.


yeah, if anything ive noticed as soon as i go oom, all of my threat goes with it =\

also if i haven't mentioned already, this is my first char. ever and i've never had a warrior or anything else =\ soooo yeah, i've never even seen a heroic before and very fer instances (like 5, maybe 3 of which i've tanked) and i have noticed mages are kinda threat stealing bitches -.-

so yeah, thanks for the posts and any more input is greatly appreciated. going to look at that 101 guide thing now (if i can find it :S)

~@~bob
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Postby Kathane » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:33 pm

Kylone's given you good info on the basics of an instance pull, but questing in the world, especially if you're soloing, is a different animal as a prot pally.

I'll toot my own horn and suggest you read this http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?p=148500#148500, and actually, read the whole thread, as it's good basic info for a mid-60's tankadin. Keep in mind that my post applies to melee mobs only. Doing the same thing with caster mobs is a recipe for a visit to the spirit healer. :lol:
"What's the kill order?"
"This room, the next room, the hallway, and then the boss."
*throws shield*

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Postby kaldarom » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:57 pm

Kathane wrote:Kylone's given you good info on the basics of an instance pull, but questing in the world, especially if you're soloing, is a different animal as a prot pally.

I'll toot my own horn and suggest you read this http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?p=148500#148500, and actually, read the whole thread, as it's good basic info for a mid-60's tankadin. Keep in mind that my post applies to melee mobs only. Doing the same thing with caster mobs is a recipe for a visit to the spirit healer. :lol:


alrighty, i did that and i dont think it could be put any more simply than what this guy says here,
Meatydog wrote:Im a 69 and havent really understood how to become the "ultimate" tank.

I always looked for advice on the server but talking to a friend of mine he says that its all wrong.
I have stacked my stam up and right now unbuffed its around 9k.
Is that norm? or below standards?

Im really disappointed that my SD is at 65... which learning from my friend is unacceptable. He mentioned something about a Crystalforged sword and that with the +40 SD enchant should boost me up to 250 or somewhere around that.

One of my issues is my mana isnt all that high, which makes it hard to solo. its like stop and go stop and go. Take on 2 or 3 mobs and then stop. and its annoying when i need to kill 30 of the things.

When tanking my mana stays pretty decent unless someone aggros more mobs than what i want. But most the time we can fix the problem unless they hit the healer.
My sequence is Avengers Shield(which i hear doesnt break CC anymore), when they get close enough i hit concecrate, then Holy shield, then my seal. I use the seal of vengance cause it does awesome damage constantly when my consecrate fades or my holy shield fades.

Most my gear isnt pally speccd i dont think cause most of its for stam, and crit strike, and att power.

Im curious about what gems i need to put in my gear also. Right now i have the gems that give +8 ap, and +6 stam.
I dont remember what my meta gem is off the top.

I read through most of this topic and got the drift that SD is something i need to focus on. But other than that i got kinda lost. This also is my main char so Im still kinda noob at this stuff.

One last thing, how can i keep a fire mage from pulling aggro from me. everytime i run with him hes yankin my aggro. even though he is hitting ridiculous.


those are all of my problems EXACTLY i have a frost mage and a rogue that i only do instances with and i cannot keep the aggro off of the mage no matter what. i just dunno what to do

i have maybe 50 spell damage, and i know exactly what quest he is talking about.

i have 7552 hp and like 4500 mana unbuffed, fucking pathetic. ill see what i can do....

funny thing is all of my gems are hp, spell dmg. or stam (mostly 4 spell dmg\4 stam purple ones)

i come from a shitty ass low pop pvp server (called ursin) like 2 days ago aliance got the first warglaive on the server. so i doubt ill be able to find any good gear...

i think thats all i had to say, idk, it's late and im tired.....

~@~bob
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Postby Dane » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:29 pm

Whoa...have I had it backwards the whole time? I always thought you were supposed to Cons, THEN Holy Shield, so the cooldowns align properly?
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Postby caboom » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:42 am

kaldarom wrote:i have maybe 50 spell damage, and i know exactly what quest he is talking about.

i have 7552 hp and like 4500 mana unbuffed, fucking pathetic. ill see what i can do....


those stats look good as far as HP is concerned, SD is a bit low, that's probably why the rogue would steal agro from you, so increase your sd and put BoSalvation on him till u do increase ur SD, if things go wild and mobs start to jump him, put blessing of protection on him, this will stop him from DPSing and will also wipe out his threat, meaning the mobs would run back to you, don't forget to put salvation after protection runs out, or after the pull is over. Also use retribution aura, so that when the mobs hit you after a taunt they would stay on you.

also keep this in mind, as long as you are doing your best to do maximum threat out of the best skill combos you can put togheter(like the tipical pulls the ppl sugested upper) in a pull the best DPS should know to stop DPSing when their threat is getting bigger than yours, so they have to adjust according to you, and not otherwise, but that doesn't mean you should slack off ;p

PS : to imrove your spell dmg very fast get : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24361 (drops very frequently of the 1st boss in slave pens; i got mine last night in my 1st run there ;p) or http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24384 (from blood furnace, it's a bit more rare and it is really a down grade from the 1st but it is still a decent weapon), also if you can conjure some gold out of nowhere, get a http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22555 permanent enchant on your weapon(you need alotta cash for this but it would be worth it if cash is not your problem as it nearly doubles your threat potential from your weapon), or at least temporary enchants http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22522 (goes very cheap at AH even on low pop servers, and prolly the best choice at these lvls as it has multiple charges and it persits trough death) or http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28103 (not so cheap but they become real good if ur an alchemist and u can make em yourself) or even spell dmg food(never used that, but it works sth like the potion)
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Postby Pizbit » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:42 am

Dane wrote:Whoa...have I had it backwards the whole time? I always thought you were supposed to Cons, THEN Holy Shield, so the cooldowns align properly?


It honestly doesn't matter a whole lot unless you're tanking mobs that crush(raid bosses, aka mobs +3 levels). It'll fit in to a rotation and you tend to be mana starved anyway so can't do a proper rotation and just fit things in when you get mana.

I only ever pay attention if it's a raid boss, else I just faceroll all over the keyboard yelling "MOAR! GIEF MOAR MOBZ PLZORZ!" on vent.
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Postby Lore » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:44 am

Dane wrote:Whoa...have I had it backwards the whole time? I always thought you were supposed to Cons, THEN Holy Shield, so the cooldowns align properly?


The cooldowns will eventually run into each other regardless. Starting with a Cons first will let you spam it as soon as it comes up for the first 3 or 4 casts, but after that it will run into Holy Shield and you'll have to either wait on HS for a second to let Consecrate "pass by" (this is usually bad on things that can crush) or just deal with 10 second cooldown Consecrate.

To the OP: The best advice I can give to someone coming from a DPS role to tanking is this. Whereas DPS (and healing, at least in early content) tends to be "Optimize myself for biggest numbers and go", tanking is all about fitting yourself to whatever it is you're tanking. You can probably get by using the same gear, same buffs, same spell rotation on every encounter in the game, but you'll get significantly more mileage by learning everything you can and adapting your play to the encounter at hand.
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Postby Kathane » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:19 pm

kaldarom wrote:those are all of my problems EXACTLY i have a frost mage and a rogue that i only do instances with and i cannot keep the aggro off of the mage no matter what. i just dunno what to do

i have maybe 50 spell damage, and i know exactly what quest he is talking about.

i have 7552 hp and like 4500 mana unbuffed, fucking pathetic. ill see what i can do....

funny thing is all of my gems are hp, spell dmg. or stam (mostly 4 spell dmg\4 stam purple ones)

i come from a shitty ass low pop pvp server (called ursin) like 2 days ago aliance got the first warglaive on the server. so i doubt ill be able to find any good gear...

i think thats all i had to say, idk, it's late and im tired.....

~@~bob


Guessing this is you: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ursin&n=Kaldarom

Replacements that immediately come to mind -

Head - We don't need strength or crit. Go for the Helm of Natural Purity in Zang (Stealing Back the Mushrooms quest)

Shoulder - You could go with an "of the Sorceror" set off the AH or Noble Plate Pauldrons from the Terrorkarantula quest.

Legs - Cenarion Thicket Legplates from Terrokar (Letting Earthbinder Tavgren Know) Do not gem for the socket bonus, straight stamina

Feet - Replace the mixed color gem with a straight stamina gem. The 3 def bonus is not critical.

Trinkets - Regal Protectorate from Overlord quest in HFP, Charm of Alacrity from Voidwalkers Gone Wild quest in HFP, Ancient Crystal Talisman from Spirit Ally quest in Zangarmarsh and/or Oshu'gun Relic from Gava'xi quest in Nagrand.

Shield - Get a shield spike on it, best you can afford.

Ring - Replace the mixed color gem with straight stam, you don't need the socket bonus

Libram - Run the first boss in Blood Furnace for his libram drop

Instances - Slave Pens: SD weapon from 1st boss, cloak from second, chest (still using this one) and cloak from final boss.

UBog - Neck and belt (meh) from second boss, cloak, shoulder and (meh) pants from 3rd boss, (meh) shoulders from last boss

That'd be a starting point

Also, consider that your mage may not be sufficiently letting you build threat. It's the mage's responsibility to stay under you. It's your responsibility to make sure he doesn't have to think about it.
"What's the kill order?"
"This room, the next room, the hallway, and then the boss."
*throws shield*

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Postby Kelaan » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:47 pm

kaldarom wrote:i have been kinda doing something like that, but using seal of the crusader instead then spam conc\holy shield, and use seal of wisdom if my mana gets like ~1k, is that wrongish? =\


Yes and no.

The smoothness of a pull is often related directly to how much front-loaded aggro you can put on your targets. A 500-1000 damage judgement of righteousness is ~1000-2000 threat for you, basically (minus a few percent), which ensures that EVEN IF your avenger's shield missed (and it can), your DPS can start pretty much right away, and your healer can too.

If you start with Crusader, that means your consecrate ticks for a bit more, your SoR hits a little harder, etc -- all good in the LONG TERM, but in most fights, you want the initial aggro lead of a Righteousness judgement.

If you want JoCrusader on there, I suggest this:

- Seal Righteousness.
- Pull.
- Judge/seal Righteousness AGAIN. This lets your initial few hits do extra holy damage - important for the critical early stage for threat gen.
- When your judgement cooldown is ALMOST over, seal Crusader, judge Crusader, and re-seal Righteousness.

This ensures that you get your initial righteousness burst threat in, and then lets you get a Crusader judgement on there.

Often, most fights are short enough (or, the first target DIES soon enough) that just saving your judgement of Righteousness for the next target (or using JoR on the main target) is better. Pretty much the only time I use Crusader is when I need to plan for extra burst threat/damage at the end (e.g., the first boss in Shattered Halls), or if I'm not tanking the first kill target, and thus have time to let crusader boost my damage in the long term.

I pretty much just use Righteousness. Things tend to die before my second judgement is ready, or be so low that I can instead swap targets to #2 and judge THAT -- for another good threat lead.
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Postby kaldarom » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:00 pm

Kathane wrote:
kaldarom wrote:those are all of my problems EXACTLY i have a frost mage and a rogue that i only do instances with and i cannot keep the aggro off of the mage no matter what. i just dunno what to do

i have maybe 50 spell damage, and i know exactly what quest he is talking about.

i have 7552 hp and like 4500 mana unbuffed, fucking pathetic. ill see what i can do....

funny thing is all of my gems are hp, spell dmg. or stam (mostly 4 spell dmg\4 stam purple ones)

i come from a shitty ass low pop pvp server (called ursin) like 2 days ago aliance got the first warglaive on the server. so i doubt ill be able to find any good gear...

i think thats all i had to say, idk, it's late and im tired.....

~@~bob


Guessing this is you: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ursin&n=Kaldarom

Replacements that immediately come to mind -

Head - We don't need strength or crit. Go for the Helm of Natural Purity in Zang (Stealing Back the Mushrooms quest)

Shoulder - You could go with an "of the Sorceror" set off the AH or Noble Plate Pauldrons from the Terrorkarantula quest.

Legs - Cenarion Thicket Legplates from Terrokar (Letting Earthbinder Tavgren Know) Do not gem for the socket bonus, straight stamina

Feet - Replace the mixed color gem with a straight stamina gem. The 3 def bonus is not critical.

Trinkets - Regal Protectorate from Overlord quest in HFP, Charm of Alacrity from Voidwalkers Gone Wild quest in HFP, Ancient Crystal Talisman from Spirit Ally quest in Zangarmarsh and/or Oshu'gun Relic from Gava'xi quest in Nagrand.

Shield - Get a shield spike on it, best you can afford.

Ring - Replace the mixed color gem with straight stam, you don't need the socket bonus

Libram - Run the first boss in Blood Furnace for his libram drop

Instances - Slave Pens: SD weapon from 1st boss, cloak from second, chest (still using this one) and cloak from final boss.

UBog - Neck and belt (meh) from second boss, cloak, shoulder and (meh) pants from 3rd boss, (meh) shoulders from last boss

That'd be a starting point

Also, consider that your mage may not be sufficiently letting you build threat. It's the mage's responsibility to stay under you. It's your responsibility to make sure he doesn't have to think about it.


Yeah thats me, and im working on that stuff now, getting the pants as i type this.

and as far as the gems go, i thought u had to have the right color gem for the socket. i never knew that matching the colors just gave you the socket bonus :( and pretty much everything i've seen mentioned isn't on the auction house...bah, luckly a guildie was a JC, got him to make 10 of those +9 stam gems :D

~@~bob
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Postby Kathane » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:14 pm

Everything I listed (gearwise) in there is a quest item, other than the instance drops, so no worries about the AH other than for things like the Shield of the Wayward Footman (and maybe the shield spike).

TBH, the best way to learn to be a tank, is to tank :lol: It sounds like you were still ret when you got your drops in Ramps/BF? Best situation is if you've got guildies willing to work with/for you, to go back to HFP and run the instances (Besides, you want that Libram from The Maker, anyway!). Ask them to dial back their damage a bit so you get the feel of tanking at an appropriate level to the DPS. If nothing else, PUG a run of each, you'll outgear the instance enough that surviving a PUG should be doable. Then move up to Slave Pens and UB.

Oh, and per your concerns about your mana, I would suspect that if you Armory'd most anyone here in their tank gear, they probably have a mana pool fairly close to your own. (Ignore my Sig, that mana pool is me in my threat set) :wink:
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"This room, the next room, the hallway, and then the boss."
*throws shield*

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