Always 1% crushable, 1% crittable? The hell?

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Always 1% crushable, 1% crittable? The hell?

Postby Poin » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:42 pm

OK, so I got into this long argument with this other tankadin tonight. Aside from the fact that he's been emphasizing stamina over avoidance to the point where he's still deliberately 5% crushable in Karazhan/ZA gear and Quel'danas badge loot, he told me something that contradicts my own experiences and everything I've been told so far. He mentioned that no matter what your avoidance/mitigation and +defense, you always have a 1% chance to be critically hit and/or crushed, and that was his rationale for slacking off on making sure he couldn't be crushed. Setting aside the rest of the long, long argument I had with him, is this true? I thought the way the attack table worked made it completely impossible to be crit or crushed when you have 490 defense and >102.4% mitigation.
Image
Poin
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:40 pm

Postby Novariety » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:58 pm

I got crit once but that was doing /sit.

Other than that I think the only mobs that have ever crit me is the Mother whatevertheyarecalled in Slabs but that is due to the debuff.
Image
Image
Image
Novariety
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Perth Australia

Postby sbeacher » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:40 am

He's a moron.
Image
sbeacher
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:34 pm

Postby Splug » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:22 am

He's not necesarily unintellegent, but he is misinformed. Data which has been gathered here and elsewhere implies that your friend is incorrect: all crushing blow and critical hit entries can be removed from the table, or reduced to a point where their occurance is so infrequent it has not been measured. It is, however, possible to remove these numbers under an active buff such as holy shield or shield block, and still remain vulnerable while these buffs are not active. In the event that he takes a crushing blow, it is very likely his holy shield/shield block charges either expired or were fully consumed before the ability was refreshed. It is also possible that something has managed to find its way behind him, as your block and parry entries are removed when opponents are not in the frontal arc.

In short, the data gathered indicates your understanding as stated here is correct. (... unless you're sitting, in which case the entire combat table is replaced with critical hit.)

-Splug
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am

Postby arilink » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:47 am

One thought that bothers me is, e.g. when I was running through Shadowfang Keep training xx monsters into one corner and turning my back on them I can rarely see any "Dodge" entries in the logs. "Miss" seems to be the normal percentage, parry and block are of course non-existent. But having 20%ish "Dodge" and it somehow never occurs leaves me with the question if the dodge chance behind is at least reduced?
Needs help.
User avatar
arilink
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:17 pm

Postby Pizbit » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:52 am

It's my understanding you can't dodge/parry/block from behind, can only get misses.
I have ADHD and OCD...I keep forgetting to wash my hands.
Pizbit
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:37 am

Postby Janduin » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:08 am

As I understand it, mobs can dodge attacks from behind, as any melee dps knows. However, players cannot, so to first-order it has the same damage reduction effect as parry as a function of the direction you are facing. If you can't parry an attack, I don't think you can dodge it either.
Image
Janduin
 
Posts: 746
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:57 am
Location: Geneva

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:43 am

Correct, there's even a login tip dedicated to this: "Players can not dodge, parry or block from behind."

I love it how they just give mobs overpowered abilities to compensate for their lack of AI...
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
Image
User avatar
Gamingdevil
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
Location: Belgium

Postby Splug » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:22 am

Gamingdevil wrote:I love it how they just give mobs overpowered abilities to compensate for their lack of AI...
No, but mobs that can dodge from behind get overpowered!

...

It's 5:30 am and I haven't slept yet, I thought it was funny.

-Splug
Active raid character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... an&n=Spyte
255 characters is not enough to fit my alts' armories in.
User avatar
Splug
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 am

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:54 am

Splug wrote:
Gamingdevil wrote:I love it how they just give mobs overpowered abilities to compensate for their lack of AI...
No, but mobs that can dodge from behind get overpowered!

...

It's 5:30 am and I haven't slept yet, I thought it was funny.

-Splug
I giggled a little.
Just a little.






Your friend is misinformed. The typical situation where a player is uncrushable is guaranteed, the player is 100% uncrushable amd uncrittable. Once you apply exceptions(mostly holy shield being off or you being a noob on the facing), crits and crushes appply based on your remaining stats.
There are 3 or 4 mobs in th game with a higher crit chance than the defense sfot cap of 490, but these don't hit hard anyway.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15542
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby Ashmadai » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:08 am

Your friend just doesn't know what he's talking about. Tell him to come here, or any other decent tanking website for that matter, before he starts spouting off numbers.
Image
Ashmadai
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:50 pm

Postby MichaelBerea » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:18 am

In addition to the above answers to your main question, there is no excuse at all for being 5% crushable in a raid. If he thinks a 4-5% difference in crushability does not matter he needs to try healing a crushable warrior/pally in Karazhan sometime. Or better yet ZA.

Of course, we all know you cannot be crushed in heroics and you only need 485 defense there. Maybe your friend needs to spend some time in heroics before he is ready for raiding?
MichaelBerea
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:19 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Postby Spectrum » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:32 am

490 defense will reduce your chance to be crit by lvl 73 mobs (bosses) to 0. It's gotten to the point that the few times I'm in my spell-damage or healing gear and I get crit it freaks me out because I'm not used to it and I think something is wrong.

With the way the attack table works, against a 73 mob with no special changes to their attack table, 102.4% avoidance/block will make you immune to critical hits and crushes.

Crit immune and crushing immune are actually just that. I believe there was a point that the hit mechanics always included at least 1% chance to miss, but stats aren't like that anymore.
Spectrum
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:40 pm
Location: Silvermoon, Alliance

Postby Makaijin » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:49 am

He seems misinformed more than anything. He could be applying the theory of how spell hit there is always a 1% chance of a miss resist even when you cap out your spell hit. He probably thinks this 1% also applies to the melee attack table, which as we all know it does not, thus his logic in thinking there is always a 1% chance to crit and crush.
Image
Makaijin
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:23 am

Postby Lookit » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:52 am

I think I might know where your friends confusion is coming from:

1) Spells always have a 1% resist rate, no matter how much spell hit a player has. This however most certainly does not apply to melee.

2) Being uncrushable is dependant on your dodge/parry/block/miss adding up to 102.4%. If for any reason you are unable to do any of those things, you will be crushable. For example: being stunned (can no longer dodge parry or block), being attacked from behind due to being feared, not having Holy Shield up, etc.

He probably got the 1% inherent spell resist mechanic confused with melee, along with seeing some crushes in his combat log that were likely due to a stun or something.

Also, regarding "490 defense makes you uncrittable" that obviously isn't quite true. 490 defense reduces your chance to be crit by 5.6%. Since that is the highest crit percentage that any mob will have, it does essentially make you "uncrittable" for PvE purposes. But if you do anything that increases your chance to be crit (such as sitting down, or certain mob debuffs) then you can be crit even at 490 def.
Image
User avatar
Lookit
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:17 am

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest