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Itching to try a 0/40/21 Threat spec.

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Postby Worldie » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:47 am

That's what i keep repeating since years :P

At least for t4/t5 content, the SA spec sucks and shouldn't be used.
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Postby Talmus » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:05 am

Worldie wrote:That's what i keep repeating since years :P

At least for t4/t5 content, the SA spec sucks and shouldn't be used.


Actually it worked great for me...I would just need to have my regular healers there. If you're going to drop AD you have to have healers that have 100% awake/alert time. If you don't feel you have that then AD is NOT optional.

Other than dropping AD all that I had to drop to make this work was AS and Kings. In Kara I didn't miss AS once since I can use Exorcism for most pulls and let the warrior tank pull anything else that I couldn't pull. And we had another Paladin with Kings so nothing lost there either.

So really, this spec is great for any content that you know you can dominate. Unfortunately dominating content isn't the tank's job alone. You need to know that you AND the healers can dominate the content.
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Postby shifttusk » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:41 am

Worldie wrote:That's what i keep repeating since years :P

At least for t4/t5 content, the SA spec sucks and shouldn't be used.


With the addition of badge gear and easy upgrades do you still think this though? It works twofold also most healers have better stats and lets be honest, I don't remember any paladin tanks having 15k unbuffed HP in KZ/GL/ML when I was running it as progression.

The biggest thing I like SA spec for though is ZA runs. 3% raid crit and my higher TPS and slightly higher (lack of shield spec) dmg input = faster killing and no downtime where I'm having to drink. Plus just the extra 100dps or so I'm doing while tanking probably helps as well.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:49 am

The main reason for which there's no need to spec SA in t4/t5 is AD. Trashs and bosses in T4-5 content don't really hit that hard, but they can burst you down with some skills. Ardent Defender is very valuable since when you get in range it will most of the times save you. And obviously any tankadin progressing through hyhal should absolutely have it, it's a lifesaver.

The SA spec is the extreme of the paladin's threat potential. I wanted to try it for long, but i didn't really spec into it until we had farmed BT for a bit and our mages were complaining about threat cap.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Harlequinn » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:33 am

It depends on your role as a tank. I am one of the 3 MTs for my guild, (one of each class). Each class brings something differant to the table, I am not about tanking big boss mobs all the time. And the majority of fights in Hyjal/BT and beyond have me off doing some other job anyways. If it's a one tank fight I will spec ret, cause I know my 1K + dps as ret will help out more. For farm content I will tank shit just so it dies a bit faster. Any kinda progression and I will OT mainly.

For the way I play though I don't see how AD will benefit me at all... Sure it might be useful in hyjal if you grab multiple abominations and don't wanna get insta gibbed. At the same time if you are tanking all the abominations in hyjal then your other tanks need to be gkicked for not doing their jobs. There are only a few encounters that come to mind where AD could be handy, (Prince/Lynx off the top of my head) but even then as long as your healers don't suck you shouldn't have to worry.

Anyways, whether you spec cookie cutter or 0/40/21 it's all about having fun. If you haven't tried life without shield throw, give it a shot, it's only 50g to try it out and see if it's for you or not.
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Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:19 am

Harlequinn wrote:Anyways, whether you spec cookie cutter or 0/40/21 it's all about having fun. If you haven't tried life without shield throw, give it a shot, it's only 50g to try it out and see if it's for you or not.


Exactly. I respec'd back because for my exact situation it wasn't the right time. That said I'm VERY glad to have had the experience and would do it again in a heartbeat if we had some backup choice healers on our raid team for days that the main healers can't make it. For Kara at least (and definitely for soloing dailies and running things with lower level friends) 0/40/21 is an easier spec...you just have to have on the ball healers to cover things for you. Heck, I just did BM normal for my first time and had trouble with mana until I stripped down to my pure dps gear (around 390 defense) at which point we tore the place apart. I guess my point with that is that there's a TON of content now where AD is really unnecessary and especially with some guilds putting progression on hold until WotLK 0/40/21 could be a nice spec to use while you farm old content for the next several months.
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Postby ulrichter » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:04 am

Well I tried the 40/21 spec for this weeks reset.

Wednesday afternoon, full Kara run as solo tank. Tbh I was a bit nervous, its a while since I solo'd it - so many pugs just dont think its possible.

Anyway a couple of hours later Kara cleared (except of NS lol) and lots of happy campers - especially the locks. One a fellow guildie and class leader no less said he hadn't needed to soul shatter once. First time I've seen a kara group (pug) epeen about nuking stuff and what fun they were having.

Since then MH - all fine, 4 bosses down as usual. I was amazed to see I was 8th! on overall damage done just after 3rd boss.

Last night BT - a bit more problematic. Early BT has tricky pulls and here my role is strictly as OT. Not having a targeted pull like shield toss is annoying. So I had to rely on conscretation (tricky as I was on CC break duty/ and taunts) but I think I am starting to get the hang of it.

I've struggled with warrior taunting and pulling agro off me - which they still did last night. But their taunts lasted about 4secs before the mobs turned its attention back on me. Supremus being a great example in point, once I'd picked him up after phase change no one was taking him off me (this is something I indeed to do from now on to underline the point that I am not just a BT OT).

What we could really do with is some sort of 'holy strike' spell available to all paladins or early in the ret tree with 30 yrds range. Pulling with a judgement of righteousness is tricky (ie limited range). Also taunting is dangerous as sometime your target is on the maintank and you get his mark aswell as your own. We had no hunters last night so maybe with Mis Direct the maintank's target will be more sticky.

In summary, I agree, you need a certain standard of gear level to pull this spec off and it'll take more effort to make it fly. But I honestly cant see why this doesn't become the new standard talent spec.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:56 am

Doubt it would become "standard", overally for a progression tank the cookie cutter is better. And eventually for a new tankadin as well, SA spec just isn't good since he doesn't yet know the mechanic of the class and AS would help him a lot.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Wrexsoul » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:32 am

Just popping in to mention a decent alternative to AS for all those "ohnos now I have to body pull" naysayers: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=18588 ! It doesn't have the threat of the Avenging Shield, obviously, but it deals enough damage to not lose aggro to the resto druid rebuffing thorns, and hits with a wide enough radius that you can hit a full group with it most of the time. Plus, to be perfectly honest, what's proer than pulling a group of baddies by chucking a stick o' dynamite at them :P. I had my engineer alt craft me about 100 of them as soon as I specced 40/21, and they worked like a charm.

-EDIT- Plus, you can pull stuff while running, how cool is that :o.

(The biggest problem with 40/21 is obviously still losing Ardent Defender, so it's not like the dynamite suddenly makes the spec viable for progression etc, but it definitely makes up the loss of Avenger's Shield.)
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Postby shifttusk » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:38 am

as you can gather from my part of the back and forth on this site i <3 this new spec while i'm running things I overgear like kara and heroics. The threat is just astounding. I had a shammy in grp in kara this week for some WoA love and was tanking moroes and all 4 adds when the adds were done I put o JoCru and then blew wings. It was absolutely awesome to see 1800 tps through wings with my gear level. Plus i feel the higher tps and 3% raid crit really helps speed up these farm festivals.

Worldi <3's for the recomendations.
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Postby Tyaera » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:32 am

I have specced to this and will not be speccing back.

It has made everything exponentially easier. I held VR for about 40%, through about four knockbacks, then he switched to a feral druid. Druid got knockbacked once, and I had him back again.
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Postby Nemesís » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:51 am

um why is it so hard to have a ret pally in your raid with you? let them have sanct aura, improved sanct aura even :shock: why complain about what specs we need and trying to get the best of both worlds, let the ret pally (s) take care of their talent tree and you maximise your usefullness and surviveablity as a tank in so far as keeping the passive "oh crap" button of argent defender and the increased threat generation of OHWS that way you can have the best of both worlds just raid with a well geared ret pally :roll:
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:11 am

Tyaera wrote:I have specced to this and will not be speccing back.

It has made everything exponentially easier. I held VR for about 40%, through about four knockbacks, then he switched to a feral druid. Druid got knockbacked once, and I had him back again.


I held him for 90% using a 49/12 spec. Does say nothing, really. You have to be lucky with knockbacks and you're good to go.

I have a Retri Paladin if I need extra threat. And I tank bosses, which is what 49/12 does a lot better that 40/21.

--------------------

Short: 40/21 is THE spec if you tank trash mobs and have no Retri Paladin.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:43 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
Tyaera wrote:I have specced to this and will not be speccing back.

It has made everything exponentially easier. I held VR for about 40%, through about four knockbacks, then he switched to a feral druid. Druid got knockbacked once, and I had him back again.


I held him for 90% using a 49/12 spec. Does say nothing, really. You have to be lucky with knockbacks and you're good to go.

I have a Retri Paladin if I need extra threat. And I tank bosses, which is what 49/12 does a lot better that 40/21.

--------------------

Short: 40/21 is THE spec if you tank trash mobs and have no Retri Paladin.
>:) Tell that to worldi. The loss of AD is the only difference between that and sanctity spec. You can pull some crazy numbers indeed, and if you hunger for threat, that's the way.
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spec

Postby chaos45 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:10 am

the Spec I used for a long time was just enough in retribution to get to Improved retribution aura, and the rest in prot.

Give alittle more threat gen from you taking hits, and alot more threat gen on mass pulls for AoE tanking. Seemd to work fine for me for a long time.

As to single target pulling without holyshield, what I usually do is bring up righteousness then run up and use judgement of righteousness on my single target, which usually hits for a decent amount and gets the mobs attention from the grp. Also in 25 mans it works well because then the other tanks dont need to pull extra crap off u which is often the case of when using holyshield. To me always seemed the easiest method to do a single target pull to u to tank in most raids.
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