Itching to try a 0/40/21 Threat spec.

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Itching to try a 0/40/21 Threat spec.

Postby shifttusk » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:41 am

So heres the deal. I'm a threat lover!

There is something absolutely fun about going into a heroic and outdpsing people as the tank. I'm very far from BT/Hyjall on my pally but I run as a tank in kara alt runs all the time and love holding the dps of t6 mains.

So obviously I'd love to have sanctity aura, crusade along side my 1hs.

Dropping ardent defender doesn't really worry me too much, as many people pointed out its great when you have sleepy healers on trash etc but really its not that big. My worry is how I'll deal with not having avengers shield. Now I know the 0/40/21 is recomended for those in SWP and farming BT but how do you guys pull in a 5 man now? Expecialy say in MrT where you want a bit of CC and need to back up for los when there may not be a demon/ud around? Do DPS complain that they don't have the extra 2k threat to go nuts with right away? Do you really think its viable to try this build out now or should I remain semi cookie cutter (1/2 imp judge and 0/2 spell warding for reckoning).
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Postby Korbah » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:57 am

Mana tap? Almost every mob in heroic mgt has mana. ^^ Just tell your dps'ers to wait until the target is actually to you, since it doesn't do any threat. :\
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Postby dmok » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:16 am

Korbah wrote:Mana tap? Almost every mob in heroic mgt has mana. ^^ Just tell your dps'ers to wait until the target is actually to you, since it doesn't do any threat. :\

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Postby Ashmadai » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:16 am

I'll be honest, I tried this spec out last night for about 30 minutes, but not having Avenger's Shield just annoyed me far too much. The spec was really cool on a boss because my TPS was about 150 over what it normally is for that fight, but for my purposes(Lots of heroics, ZA, tanking in t5 and now starting Hyjal), not having AS was just too troublesome.

For me, part of being a Pally is being able to frontload threat on trash and losing AS hurts that badly. After I got annoyed and specced back to my normal spec, I actually dropped spell warding and took 1 point from improved judgement and added 3/5 Reckoning to my build, and it actually gave me a pretty nice threat increase, as well as making my rotation a lot smoother. I would recommend that if you're looking for a little threat bump.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:11 pm

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=9066

have a look here, might find something interesting regarding it.
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Postby Aloette » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:13 pm

the 40/21 threat spec is not great for 5-mans. Losing avengers shield to gain sanctity is like borrowing from peter to pay paul.

One of the biggest assets to a Paladin is the ability to frontload 1.5-2.0k threat with an avengers shield, meaning your party has to do (off the top of my head) about 3-4k damage when you factor in salvation and the fact that DPS needs to do 110% or 130% of your threat to pull aggro. If you don't have AS to frontload that threat I imagine you will have trouble holding aggro, as DPS tend to go nuts right away when a Paladin is tanking.

Beyond putting yourself at a threat disadvantage, you have no way of pulling. Not all pulls are doable as body pulls, as you'll sometimes end up with 2 or 3 groups -- so you'll be relying on other people to pull, which in a tough heroic is just too much of a hastle.

As a tank, you should be a 'survival' junkie, not a threat/damage junkie. Don't worry about the damage you are doing. If you are ever out DPSing someone -- don't get too excitied, as that person is doing something horribly, horribly wrong.

40/21 is pretty much a raiding-threat build for bosses. AS is too vital to not have for all the trash in 5 mans.
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Re: Itching to try a 0/40/21 Threat spec.

Postby Sandal » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:41 am

I just switched over to 40/21 and I am really glad with this change.

Yes, loosing AS hurts very mutch but you get ways around it. Giving after 30 minutes is not the way ^^

Concecrate, first HS Charges usualy is enough for our DPSers to start dps. If you have a "spiky" class like an elemental shaman you will have to taunt the mobs a few times more and gain some extra threat doing this.

Especially if pulling more than 3 mobs I really like my current spec, because dpsers overaggro much less. Say Hyal trash, most of Kara, ZA is another good example.
Aggro on bosses has done a big leap, too and my dpsers are satisfied :)

Last night doing arka hero conecration ticked for ~230 dmg :> Mobs are just glued to you!
edit: Please note that this was not under raid conditions.
I got a flask of blinding light running from a former raid, spelldmg oil, spelldmg food, ele shaman, changed in a few heal items for mor spelldmg = >800 spelldmg buffed, will not reach this while tanking raid bosses.
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Postby Extremity » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:23 am

You learn to live without Avengers Shield. I've been 40/21 for... jesus, months, and I do kara/heroics/timed za/hyjal/bt/sunwell and pretty much everything else with no issues.

I consider AS to be mainly a heroic 5man tool... but even then, I just facepull with a judgement. You learn to live without it, you're basically trading burst starting threat for more all-around threat.
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Postby Caelus » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:44 am

You dont need AS in any 25man content to be honest.

Then again, I tried 0/40/21 in Hyjal and didn't notice no difference, since I did perfectly fine in my old build anyway lol.
Which means, I can say in 25mans, 0/40/21 is not worst than the cookie cutters. How much better I have yet to tell.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:03 am

The SA spec is aimed to high threat, so should be used by paladins having threat problems.

The cookie cutter is fine for everything else.

I'm using the SA spec for everything. I actually tried Felmyst with the normal cookie cutter but i found out i couldnt use AS at all, so i'm likely getting back to SA spec, just with AD instead of reckoning and Redoubt/Shield spec instead of Imp Devo/Precision.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby shifttusk » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:11 am

Ashmadai wrote:I'll be honest, I tried this spec out last night for about 30 minutes, but not having Avenger's Shield just annoyed me far too much. The spec was really cool on a boss because my TPS was about 150 over what it normally is for that fight, but for my purposes(Lots of heroics, ZA, tanking in t5 and now starting Hyjal), not having AS was just too troublesome.

For me, part of being a Pally is being able to frontload threat on trash and losing AS hurts that badly. After I got annoyed and specced back to my normal spec, I actually dropped spell warding and took 1 point from improved judgement and added 3/5 Reckoning to my build, and it actually gave me a pretty nice threat increase, as well as making my rotation a lot smoother. I would recommend that if you're looking for a little threat bump.


I should clarify (thaught I did) I am runnin 3/5 reck no Spell warding and 1/2 imp judgment lik eyou and the threat is nice but as I'm pushing 50% avoidance reckoning is up less and less except when tanking trash in heroics/kara.

My main reason for pushing my threat/dps up is my pally is an alt in a t6 guild and I often tank for t6 dps in badgezan or badgeeroic runs for peoples offspec gear and my alts gear. Yes owning a bad rogue/hunter/lock in a heroic is funny but keeping threat on t6 shamans and rogues is tough work :p. I don't have a threat problem per say when I run with like geared dps (I generaly smoke them in threat) but I do want more so I can keep my t6 buddies in groups to make 35 minute mech runs rather than 45 :P

Worldie I'll check the link you suggested to see if it has any solutions to my main concerns about tbe build (pulling). Obviously sanctity aura scales with your SD I generaly sit at 330 for bosses 400 for trash unbuffed do you think that is ample to even begin taking advantage of the SA build. What about my drop in survivability from the loss of AD? I'm sitting at the following stats in boss set:

14.5khp unbuffed
16.2k armor unbuffed (no aura)
22.something dodge
17.0 parry
11.9 miss
18 block

I'm a bit past uncrush but not to where I can use the threat libram full time (qq want some more block rating).
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Postby DJSticky » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:04 pm

Worldie wrote:The SA spec is aimed to high threat, so should be used by paladins having threat problems.

The cookie cutter is fine for everything else.

I'm using the SA spec for everything. I actually tried Felmyst with the normal cookie cutter but i found out i couldnt use AS at all, so i'm likely getting back to SA spec, just with AD instead of reckoning and Redoubt/Shield spec instead of Imp Devo/Precision.

How do you get AD and SA? I don't think you can =/

Anyway I spec SA for everything now, felmyst skeles don't scare me in the least, everything else except muru zerkers most likely leapfrog it, twins are an exception but I haven't had any problems there yet. I like the extra threat on twins anyway.

To me not having AS in 5 mans doesn't make to much of a difference, a judge on the FF and you're good to go.
The only time AS would be usefull to me would be on Muru but honestly I'd rather have the sustained threat then the frontload. If I'm doing Sents a judge and an Exo put me miles ahead and if I"m doing zerkers a judge+conc followed by HoJ taunt is plenty.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:55 am

DJSticky wrote:
Worldie wrote:The SA spec is aimed to high threat, so should be used by paladins having threat problems.

The cookie cutter is fine for everything else.

I'm using the SA spec for everything. I actually tried Felmyst with the normal cookie cutter but i found out i couldnt use AS at all, so i'm likely getting back to SA spec, just with AD instead of reckoning and Redoubt/Shield spec instead of Imp Devo/Precision.

How do you get AD and SA? I don't think you can =/



Why not?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVhxIx0zMgqZVsx0hcz
AD and SA.
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Postby steadypal » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:59 am

i would like to see how worldie would react to pulling stuff in kara/za and in heroics? i dont like the idea of facepulling... or do you just not tank those things anymore?? i really want to try it out in mt h waves, and bt.... maybe some other 25mans, but i just dont want to have to respec for kara/za and heroic tanking runs,,,, lol idk the thought of facepulling makes me nervous, not to mention rtards...

with the trinket from h mgt, that procs at 35% hp, its a huge eye opener, cause i see it, and say HMM everytime that procs that means AD is proccing as well.... so its easy to keep trash how often AD helps, and its quite often with my nub healers LOL... or pug healer...
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:45 am

steadypal wrote:i would like to see how worldie would react to pulling stuff in kara/za and in heroics? i dont like the idea of facepulling... or do you just not tank those things anymore?? i really want to try it out in mt h waves, and bt.... maybe some other 25mans, but i just dont want to have to respec for kara/za and heroic tanking runs,,,, lol idk the thought of facepulling makes me nervous, not to mention rtards...

with the trinket from h mgt, that procs at 35% hp, its a huge eye opener, cause i see it, and say HMM everytime that procs that means AD is proccing as well.... so its easy to keep trash how often AD helps, and its quite often with my nub healers LOL... or pug healer...


Well dont forget Exoricsm in Kara.

And we still have JoR for instant threat, its not the end of the world.
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