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Quick Question about crits

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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:07 pm

Caelus wrote:Even if Defense did not give increase % to be missed, you would still not be critted if you had 490. 140 defense will give you 5.6% reduced crit AND 5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry. You can equally say, defense turns crits in to dodge. (Or any of the 3 for that matter).

Lore can you clarify this?


If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.

At least, that's how I understand it.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:11 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Caelus wrote:Even if Defense did not give increase % to be missed, you would still not be critted if you had 490. 140 defense will give you 5.6% reduced crit AND 5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry. You can equally say, defense turns crits in to dodge. (Or any of the 3 for that matter).

Lore can you clarify this?


If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.

At least, that's how I understand it.


Err
Such a huge confusion...

1: Defense reduces Crits
2: Defense adds Miss, Dodge, Parry and Block.
No buts on that. It's just that, simple.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:13 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Caelus wrote:Even if Defense did not give increase % to be missed, you would still not be critted if you had 490. 140 defense will give you 5.6% reduced crit AND 5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry. You can equally say, defense turns crits in to dodge. (Or any of the 3 for that matter).

Lore can you clarify this?


If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.

At least, that's how I understand it.


Thats not true. Remember the rogue that tanked sharaz and gruul? He had 103% Dodge. Having 103% dodge removes Crits, Crush AND Normal hits.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 pm

Caelus wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Caelus wrote:Even if Defense did not give increase % to be missed, you would still not be critted if you had 490. 140 defense will give you 5.6% reduced crit AND 5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry. You can equally say, defense turns crits in to dodge. (Or any of the 3 for that matter).

Lore can you clarify this?


If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.

At least, that's how I understand it.


Thats not true. Remember the rogue that tanked sharaz and gruul? He had 103% Dodge. Having 103% dodge removes Crits, Crush AND Normal hits.
that's the part of the combat table.
You fill the 100 points in the order
Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Crit
Crush
Hit

If it sums past 100%, whatever under it is ignored. 100% miss = only misses come. 100% dodge = only misses and dodges come.

AND FOR YOU NITPICKERS, I KNOW IT'S 102,4%!
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:19 pm

Ya exactly, just like D&D 1d100 dice rolls
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:20 pm

Caelus wrote:Thats not true. Remember the rogue that tanked sharaz and gruul? He had 103% Dodge. Having 103% dodge removes Crits, Crush AND Normal hits.


He didn't have 103% dodge, he had at least 102.4% combined miss / parry / dodge. That's how he didn't get hit. Also, that would be covering the whole attack table.

Moduspwnens wrote:If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.


Either way, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:22 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Caelus wrote:Thats not true. Remember the rogue that tanked sharaz and gruul? He had 103% Dodge. Having 103% dodge removes Crits, Crush AND Normal hits.


He didn't have 103% dodge, he had at least 102.4% combined miss / parry / dodge. That's how he didn't get hit. Also, that would be covering the whole attack table.

Moduspwnens wrote:If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.


Right. Scrap that part. But what I was originally saying is exactly what Snake was saying.

Defense reduces crit chance. Regardless of increasing miss,parry,dodge,block or not. So it doesnt technically turns crit into misses.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:25 pm

Caelus wrote:Defense reduces crit chance. Regardless of increasing miss,parry,dodge,block or not. So it doesnt technically turns crit into misses.
And, having all the necessary points in dodge/parry/miss/block also pull crits out of the table, even if they still exist.
Say, you have 0 defense and200% block chance. You'll be uncrittable whenever you can block, because crit was pushed off the table.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:30 pm

Anyway Modus, my argument is that the statement:

Defense turns crits into misses.

Is inaccurate and incomplete. Not "wrong" but fail to describe the true nature and the full picture of the mechanics.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:37 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:
Caelus wrote:Defense reduces crit chance. Regardless of increasing miss,parry,dodge,block or not. So it doesnt technically turns crit into misses.
And, having all the necessary points in dodge/parry/miss/block also pull crits out of the table, even if they still exist.
Say, you have 0 defense and200% block chance. You'll be uncrittable whenever you can block, because crit was pushed off the table.


Yes, but again, I didn't say that.

moduspwnens wrote:If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.


So above is what I originally said ^

At the top of the WoWWiki Attack Table page (admittedly, it's a wiki), it says a Blizzard representative said, "The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."

So, piggybacking on that situation, what if this mob with a 5% crit rate and 5% miss rate attacked a tank with an additional 5% miss from defense? He would never crit. The way I understood it (and I'll research more to see if I can find more links for you) is that, yes, defense reduces crits, but it does it THROUGH increasing the attacker's miss. Thus, my original statement that having 490 defense effectively makes the crits into misses, is valid.

Still open to discussion though, of course.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:42 pm

Crit is not priority over avoidance and block. It's over hits and glances and crushings. That's why defense is not the be-all end-all way of removing crits.
And no the crit isn't reduces THROUGH increasing miss. Defense Just reduces crits, raw and simple, EXACTLY like resilience. The miss/dodge/parry/block is a completely separate factor into Defense .
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:17 pm

Caelus wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
Caelus wrote:Even if Defense did not give increase % to be missed, you would still not be critted if you had 490. 140 defense will give you 5.6% reduced crit AND 5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry. You can equally say, defense turns crits in to dodge. (Or any of the 3 for that matter).

Lore can you clarify this?


If that were the case, then getting more dodge / parry / block (somewhere before covering the whole attack table) would make you uncrittable. The only way to negate the mob's crit chance is to increase his miss rate (or use resilience), which only defense does. That's why that crit is "turned into" miss.

At least, that's how I understand it.


Thats not true. Remember the rogue that tanked sharaz and gruul? He had 103% Dodge. Having 103% dodge removes Crits, Crush AND Normal hits.

Err no, he had around 85% dodge, 15% parry and 10% miss.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:19 pm

Worldie wrote:Err no, he had around 85% dodge, 15% parry and 10% miss.


Leave me alone!~
You get the point, you meanie.
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Postby Hankthetank » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:41 pm

Caelus wrote:
Worldie wrote:Err no, he had around 85% dodge, 15% parry and 10% miss.


Leave me alone!~
You get the point, you meanie.


*nitpicking* He only needed 101.8% total anyways because he can't block. :)
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Postby Spectrum » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:21 pm

I was just taking issue with saying crits got turned into blocks. I think that stating it that way belittles the power of defense and uncrittability.

It may help some people to think about it by saying that crits get turned into something, but they don't. They just disappear and something else fills its place. Like if you lifted a boat out of the water. The boat doesn't turn into water, the water just fills the gap left behind to leave a nice smooth surface.
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