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Quick Question about crits

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Postby Spectrum » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:15 am

It's perfectly acceptable to run with slightly lower than 490 defense... if you have consumables or resilience to make up for it. :)

I suppose my worry would be that if you don't have enough defense, then you may be lacking in avoidance in general, which could mean you're eating more damage than you have to. If you just stacked dodge and block value you might be fine, but defense is just such a solid stat that I would prefer it over BV in general. Compare your current dodge + BV with the avoidance + block that defense gives you and see which has a better ratio.
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Postby Nicki » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:44 am

Lore wrote:I wouldn't worry TOO much about being at 487 defense, honestly. Like everyone said, crits are worse than crushes, but with a 0.12% chance to be crit (compared to a 15% chance to be crushed), it is highly unlikely that you'll see that happen in that rare event where you don't have HS up. It's also worth noting that most of the stuns and such (which is where uncrittability is most important) only come from trash mobs or adds, which are very rarely any higher than level 72.

Should you make 490 defense a priority? Definitely, but if you have to seriously downgrade your gear to make up that 3 defense skill, it's probably not worth it.


Really? and when the boss hits 8k crushing 10k critical your going to tell him it was ok?

18k vs 15k which number do you prefer taking damage wise?

And your telling ME that I shouldnt worry about being even slightly critable?

In short make yourself uncrittable AND uncrushable it is standard OF tanks if you are not then you are not in the right role.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:50 am

Nicki wrote:
Lore wrote:I wouldn't worry TOO much about being at 487 defense, honestly. Like everyone said, crits are worse than crushes, but with a 0.12% chance to be crit (compared to a 15% chance to be crushed), it is highly unlikely that you'll see that happen in that rare event where you don't have HS up. It's also worth noting that most of the stuns and such (which is where uncrittability is most important) only come from trash mobs or adds, which are very rarely any higher than level 72.

Should you make 490 defense a priority? Definitely, but if you have to seriously downgrade your gear to make up that 3 defense skill, it's probably not worth it.


Really? and when the boss hits 8k crushing 10k critical your going to tell him it was ok?

18k vs 15k which number do you prefer taking damage wise?

And your telling ME that I shouldnt worry about being even slightly critable?

In short make yourself uncrittable AND uncrushable it is standard OF tanks if you are not then you are not in the right role.


If he is uncrushable with HS, then the only time he will ever eat a crit/crush is when YOU ever eat a crushing blow.

So being the genius player like you sound like, it should never happen.
So yea, it doesnt matter.
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Postby Nicki » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:52 am

Caelus wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Lore wrote:I wouldn't worry TOO much about being at 487 defense, honestly. Like everyone said, crits are worse than crushes, but with a 0.12% chance to be crit (compared to a 15% chance to be crushed), it is highly unlikely that you'll see that happen in that rare event where you don't have HS up. It's also worth noting that most of the stuns and such (which is where uncrittability is most important) only come from trash mobs or adds, which are very rarely any higher than level 72.

Should you make 490 defense a priority? Definitely, but if you have to seriously downgrade your gear to make up that 3 defense skill, it's probably not worth it.


Really? and when the boss hits 8k crushing 10k critical your going to tell him it was ok?

18k vs 15k which number do you prefer taking damage wise?

And your telling ME that I shouldnt worry about being even slightly critable?

In short make yourself uncrittable AND uncrushable it is standard OF tanks if you are not then you are not in the right role.


If he is uncrushable with HS, then the only time he will ever eat a crit/crush is when YOU ever eat a crushing blow.

So being the genius player like you sound like, it should never happen.
So yea, it doesnt matter.


and yet warriors with only a small margin to be crushed will be crushed when shield block is down. You like your chances, right holy shield suffers due to lag and I know you will eat crushes so will warriors it happens its not due to fault but game mechanics and luck. Sure it is unlikely you will be double crushed but you could get:

6k + 9k OR 6k + 12k

Small as the chances may be option 1 has saved you 3000 points of damage.

BTW order of presedence from satrina:

- Miss
- Dodge
- Parry
- Block (when you gain 100% of any avoidance stat this can not occur)
- Critical Hit (when you reach 490 defence this becomes a block)
- Crushing Blow (when you reach 102.4% avoidance this becomes a block)
- Hit (when you reach 102.4% avoidance this becomes a block and when you gain 100% of any avoidance stat this can not occur)

if you push off critical hit it becomes a block just like when you push off crushing blow it becomes a block. So no that crit would be a block with holy shield up but with it down that crit would be a crit (without 490 defence) and would be a block with NOT a crushing...

You want to prove my stupidity rather than agree with me that being uncritible is a requirement because shit happens (murphy's law) lag etc. EVEN the combat system and LOG system can be wrong (showing shield block up and being crushed by prince twice is a common, or was a common occurance.)...
Last edited by Nicki on Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lookit » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:54 am

Nicki wrote:
Lore wrote:I wouldn't worry TOO much about being at 487 defense, honestly. Like everyone said, crits are worse than crushes, but with a 0.12% chance to be crit (compared to a 15% chance to be crushed), it is highly unlikely that you'll see that happen in that rare event where you don't have HS up. It's also worth noting that most of the stuns and such (which is where uncrittability is most important) only come from trash mobs or adds, which are very rarely any higher than level 72.

Should you make 490 defense a priority? Definitely, but if you have to seriously downgrade your gear to make up that 3 defense skill, it's probably not worth it.


Really? and when the boss hits 8k crushing 10k critical your going to tell him it was ok?

18k vs 15k which number do you prefer taking damage wise?

And your telling ME that I shouldnt worry about being even slightly critable?

In short make yourself uncrittable AND uncrushable it is standard OF tanks if you are not then you are not in the right role.


I don't think you read Lore's post very well.

At 487 defense and over 102.4% uncrushability, one would have 0% chance to get crit or crushed when HS was up.

In the brief times that you might not have HS up, you'd have a 0.12% chance to take a crit.

So, if you were to take 1,000 hits without having HS up, about 1 of them would be a crit.
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Postby Nicki » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:55 am

What i am saying is that you dont ever count holy shield being up 100% of the time to do so is silly.

Edit: So you'd rather be crit every now and then then gear correctly?
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:00 am

Caelus wrote:As Lore suggested, it really doesn't matter "too" much if you're just a nab under. Most likely you won't see it occur like he said. But that doesn't mean you should ignore the situation though, you should aim to fill in that tiny hole in the future.


Quoting my own post for you Nicki since apparently you don't read.
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Postby Lookit » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:05 am

Nicki wrote:What i am saying is that you dont ever count holy shield being up 100% of the time to do so is silly.

Edit: So you'd rather be crit every now and then then gear correctly?


Which would you rather have, an extra 1k health or a 0.12% chance to be crit when HS is not up? Depending on the content, I'd almost always choose the 1k health.

Obviously, the best thing to do is to get 490 defense. No question about it, that's Tankadin 101. But the discussion here is "Due to an odd situation, I find myself at 487 defense with no easy way to hit 490 without swapping in a much worse peice of armor. Should I lose out on a bunch of other stats to get to 490 even though I'm uncrushable?"
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:09 am

Lookit wrote:
Nicki wrote:What i am saying is that you dont ever count holy shield being up 100% of the time to do so is silly.

Edit: So you'd rather be crit every now and then then gear correctly?


Which would you rather have, an extra 1k health or a 0.12% chance to be crit when HS is not up? Depending on the content, I'd almost always choose the 1k health.

Obviously, the best thing to do is to get 490 defense. No question about it, that's Tankadin 101. But the discussion here is "Due to an odd situation, I find myself at 487 defense with no easy way to hit 490 without swapping in a much worse peice of armor. Should I lose out on a bunch of other stats to get to 490 even though I'm uncrushable?"


Agreed. Going blindly for 490 without considering all the math is more so stupid than doing the right thing.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:09 am

Lookit wrote:
Nicki wrote:What i am saying is that you dont ever count holy shield being up 100% of the time to do so is silly.

Edit: So you'd rather be crit every now and then then gear correctly?


Which would you rather have, an extra 1k health or a 0.12% chance to be crit when HS is not up? Depending on the content, I'd almost always choose the 1k health.

Obviously, the best thing to do is to get 490 defense. No question about it, that's Tankadin 101. But the discussion here is "Due to an odd situation, I find myself at 487 defense with no easy way to hit 490 without swapping in a much worse peice of armor. Should I lose out on a bunch of other stats to get to 490 even though I'm uncrushable?"
I'll mention here one of the common benchmark bosses. Teron Gorefiend. His crit beats about 19k damage. Wanna try?
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:11 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
Lookit wrote:
Nicki wrote:What i am saying is that you dont ever count holy shield being up 100% of the time to do so is silly.

Edit: So you'd rather be crit every now and then then gear correctly?


Which would you rather have, an extra 1k health or a 0.12% chance to be crit when HS is not up? Depending on the content, I'd almost always choose the 1k health.

Obviously, the best thing to do is to get 490 defense. No question about it, that's Tankadin 101. But the discussion here is "Due to an odd situation, I find myself at 487 defense with no easy way to hit 490 without swapping in a much worse peice of armor. Should I lose out on a bunch of other stats to get to 490 even though I'm uncrushable?"
I'll mention here one of the common benchmark bosses. Teron Gorefiend. His crit beats about 19k damage. Wanna try?


Hell no, but Snake I doubt anyone tanking Teron would ever fall into the situation the OP is in and not know the answer. Someone experienced like yourself should know there is no "correct" answer, ever. Everyhting is situational, no?
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:27 am

Caelus wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:
Lookit wrote:
Nicki wrote:What i am saying is that you dont ever count holy shield being up 100% of the time to do so is silly.

Edit: So you'd rather be crit every now and then then gear correctly?


Which would you rather have, an extra 1k health or a 0.12% chance to be crit when HS is not up? Depending on the content, I'd almost always choose the 1k health.

Obviously, the best thing to do is to get 490 defense. No question about it, that's Tankadin 101. But the discussion here is "Due to an odd situation, I find myself at 487 defense with no easy way to hit 490 without swapping in a much worse peice of armor. Should I lose out on a bunch of other stats to get to 490 even though I'm uncrushable?"
I'll mention here one of the common benchmark bosses. Teron Gorefiend. His crit beats about 19k damage. Wanna try?


Hell no, but Snake I doubt anyone tanking Teron would ever fall into the situation the OP is in and not know the answer. Someone experienced like yourself should know there is no "correct" answer, ever. Everyhting is situational, no?
:p My first time on teron I had 491 defense. GG badge gear having lvl 60 defense.
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Postby Spectrum » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:40 am

Nicki wrote:BTW order of presedence from satrina:

- Miss
- Dodge
- Parry
- Block (when you gain 100% of any avoidance stat this can not occur)
- Critical Hit (when you reach 490 defence this becomes a block)
- Crushing Blow (when you reach 102.4% avoidance this becomes a block)
- Hit (when you reach 102.4% avoidance this becomes a block and when you gain 100% of any avoidance stat this can not occur)

if you push off critical hit it becomes a block just like when you push off crushing blow it becomes a block. So no that crit would be a block with holy shield up but with it down that crit would be a crit (without 490 defence) and would be a block with NOT a crushing...

You want to prove my stupidity rather than agree with me that being uncritible is a requirement because shit happens (murphy's law) lag etc. EVEN the combat system and LOG system can be wrong (showing shield block up and being crushed by prince twice is a common, or was a common occurance.)...


I just want to make sure to point out that this is basically wrong. Things don't "become a block". They just get reduced or pushed off. 1 point of defense decreases chance to be crit by 0.04%, but increases chance to miss, dodge, parry, and block by 0.04% each. It would be just as accurate to say that defense makes crits into misses, dodges, or parries. Heck, you could even say it makes them into normal hits, even though you're taking fewer normal hits due to the other stats.

They don't make it into anything. Crit generally gets reduced to 0 with enough defense and resilience, and other stats start filling in the gaps. Crushings are avoided by pushing them off the table. You can also push crit and block off the table, but it's harder to do.

Go read the stickies about the attack table, everyone.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:51 pm

Spectrum wrote:I just want to make sure to point out that this is basically wrong. Things don't "become a block". They just get reduced or pushed off. 1 point of defense decreases chance to be crit by 0.04%, but increases chance to miss, dodge, parry, and block by 0.04% each. It would be just as accurate to say that defense makes crits into misses, dodges, or parries.

Go read the stickies about the attack table, everyone.


Lore, in the Attack Table Sticky wrote:We've already established that level 73 mobs have a 5.6% chance to crit you. In order to reduce that chance to 0, we need to add 140 Defense skill for a total of 490 Defense. This has two effects. First and foremost, it reduces the chance for a critical hit by 5.6%, removing it. Second, it increases your chance to be missed by 5.6%. Put simply, 490 defense takes the "Crit" portion of the attack table and moves it to the "Miss" portion,


While most of your post is correct, the Attack Table sticky says that defense actually DOES turn crits into misses.
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Postby Caelus » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:58 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Spectrum wrote:I just want to make sure to point out that this is basically wrong. Things don't "become a block". They just get reduced or pushed off. 1 point of defense decreases chance to be crit by 0.04%, but increases chance to miss, dodge, parry, and block by 0.04% each. It would be just as accurate to say that defense makes crits into misses, dodges, or parries.

Go read the stickies about the attack table, everyone.


Lore, in the Attack Table Sticky wrote:We've already established that level 73 mobs have a 5.6% chance to crit you. In order to reduce that chance to 0, we need to add 140 Defense skill for a total of 490 Defense. This has two effects. First and foremost, it reduces the chance for a critical hit by 5.6%, removing it. Second, it increases your chance to be missed by 5.6%. Put simply, 490 defense takes the "Crit" portion of the attack table and moves it to the "Miss" portion,


While most of your post is correct, the Attack Table sticky says that defense actually DOES turn crits into misses.


Even if Defense did not give increase % to be missed, you would still not be critted if you had 490. 140 defense will give you 5.6% reduced crit AND 5.6% Miss, Dodge, Parry. You can equally say, defense turns crits in to dodge. (Or any of the 3 for that matter).

Lore can you clarify this?
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