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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:53 pm

Correct.

You exactly said that tanks have two jobs: not dying, and holding aggro.

Some of us have more troubles in the second than in the first, and it's those who drop AD. It's worth nothing that you are unkillable if the boss goes for the DPS.

That's the end of the AD discussion :)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby inthedrops » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:45 pm

Worldie wrote:Correct.

You exactly said that tanks have two jobs: not dying, and holding aggro.

Some of us have more troubles in the second than in the first, and it's those who drop AD. It's worth nothing that you are unkillable if the boss goes for the DPS.

That's the end of the AD discussion :)


You sir, are my hero.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:46 pm

inthedrops wrote:
Worldie wrote:Correct.

You exactly said that tanks have two jobs: not dying, and holding aggro.

Some of us have more troubles in the second than in the first, and it's those who drop AD. It's worth nothing that you are unkillable if the boss goes for the DPS.

That's the end of the AD discussion :)


You sir, are my hero.
Took you long enough. Worldie had me at "menage", like, 2000 posts ago when I was a new tankadin. I was sad when I found out it was just a typo Worldie brings up often, but I love him anywayz <3
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:48 pm

Wait, which typo o_O
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:00 pm

define:menage
define:manage
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:20 pm

Wait, are you telling me it's manage and not menage? :shock:

Argh , i fail at english
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:24 pm

Worldie wrote:Wait, are you telling me it's manage and not menage? :shock:

Argh , i fail at english
<hug> we all do
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Postby kalbear » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:25 pm

Some of us have more troubles in the second than in the first, and it's those who drop AD. It's worth nothing that you are unkillable if the boss goes for the DPS.


Okay, which is easier to do:

1. Take Ardent Defender or
2. Find better healers?

That was the part I was responding to.

If you're already going for the max-threat, suck damage prevention build, clearly AD is the least of your concerns and it is the most marginal of the talents you're giving up. But you're also putting a lot of pressure on your healers to perform. If they can do that - great!

If not, well, telling the RL that they need to find better healers when you're the one dying because you didn't spec for talents that save your ass is not what I would call an informed choice.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:30 pm

kalbear wrote:
Some of us have more troubles in the second than in the first, and it's those who drop AD. It's worth nothing that you are unkillable if the boss goes for the DPS.


Okay, which is easier to do:

1. Take Ardent Defender or
2. Find better healers?

That was the part I was responding to.

If you're already going for the max-threat, suck damage prevention build, clearly AD is the least of your concerns and it is the most marginal of the talents you're giving up. But you're also putting a lot of pressure on your healers to perform. If they can do that - great!

If not, well, telling the RL that they need to find better healers when you're the one dying because you didn't spec for talents that save your ass is not what I would call an informed choice.
Dropping AD for sanctity is more on the lines of "We all agree we want superdupermegaimbathreat and agree to heal harder.faster.stronger."
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:36 pm

As you might have learned, tanking as paladin is finding the balance between threat and survivabilty.

If you find yourself surviving, meaning you got trustworthy healers, you can allow yourself to skip some talents to grab threat oriented ones.
If you find yourself dying, then you should focus on survivabilty talents, then blame healers.

The "to take or not to take AD" discussion always comes out when you are trying to pick threat talents (like in my case, Sanctity Aura). If you go for the standard 49/12 or 46/15, you take it period. Unless you want to take Reckoning, but even then, you can just take talents from retri for it.

It's a dual system, either focus on surviving or focus on aggroing. As i said before, to take or not a talent is up to personal experience.

Any non-outgeared raiding paladin in pre sunwell should consider having AD, since it's a great life saver, expecially in Hyjal, but also in T4/5 content where things don't hit hard enough to oneshot you below 35% HP. The discussion to not have it or not is left to people tanking in Sunwell and beyond since it's where threat becomes the focus.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby kalbear » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:41 pm

If you find yourself dying, then you should focus on survivabilty talents, then blame healers.
Exactly my point.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:45 pm

You must notice that however there's a difference between occasionally dying because of bad luck where AD would have saved you, and constantly dying.
The fact that i died once on Kalecgos and AD would have (maybe) saved my death (cause it's still possible that the reason for which i got no heals might have persisted for tha 1.8 swing seconds more and i would have died anyway) is not enough to consider AD worth taking for me.

It's obvious that if you got a failure healing squad then you should do everything you can to save yourself from their failure.
Reminds me of dying on Winterchill <.<... and i actually had AD. If healers fail, they fail.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:29 pm

...And it's again worth mentioning that none of this matters if you can get a Ret Paladin (or Holy Paladin that you convinced to spec for it) in your group for fights where you need it. The best of both worlds!
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:32 pm

You'd be extremely stupid to put the ret paladin in the tank group.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby balrogg » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:57 am

i apologize if my response came out as LOLGETBETTERHEALERS. the point i was making was that in almost every case that you listed that ad saved you, it was that your healers were being espeically incompetent. granted, part of me is going to be elitist and assume that if you raid, you will surround yourself with people of the same skill level, and assuming you take it seriously, you wont have to say "if that healer wasnt dumb i would have lived". that being the case, i acknowledged that shit happens, whether its preventable or not, and in that case, ad CAN save you, although its just as possible that it may not.

essentially, ad has its pros, especially when youre aoe tanking and more likely to be pushed into that gap to activate it. however, its not a guarantee by any means, and for the content that i raid/people i raid with, its just a waste of 5 points that could benefit me much more reliably. i say its a crutch because warriors and druids tank fine without it, its a buffer paladins have just in case you do need it. when i did spec into it, i found it did not save me once in the course of 2 weeks, so i dumped it. some people swear by it, and im sure its saved plenty of wipes out there. im not saying its a terrible talent, or everyone should avoid it, just putting in my 2c on how valuable it is to me.

if it were 3 points id be more inclined to spec back into it, 5 points is just a bit much, especially with its lack of utility in sunwell.
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