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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:38 am

Argali wrote:I feel it's wasted points. Doesn't do enough for the 5 points you have to spend. But then again, it's a must have if you pug heroics.... and don't think it's safe not to have it even if you heroics with guildies only.


Dang, I only feel like it's wasted on Sunwell bosses. I used to think, "Heck, warriors do without it. It can't be THAT useful." But seriously, I find myself resetting Tankadin's counter all the time with averted deaths. Assuming that its code is correct, it'll be a while til I'm comfortable giving that up.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:43 am

Argali wrote:I feel it's wasted points. Doesn't do enough for the 5 points you have to spend. But then again, it's a must have if you pug heroics.... and don't think it's safe not to have it even if you heroics with guildies only.
Keep it for a while with a tracker. It'll rarely ever save you from more than 1 hit against bosses, but it's the difference between a wipe and a kill when it does.
And wiping on trash is SAD. Be it bt trash, TK trash or hyjal trash. Dieing = bad. AD saved my ass many a time in hyjal, where you know well a wipe on trash = do over from scratch.
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Postby Argali » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:19 am

I do have tankadin, and i do keep track. So far the only deaths averted are from pug healers being crap, guildies falling asleep, or slacking, or in one case being legitimately crap, or cc not doing their job.

It does do a lot, but I think for 5 points it's terribly overcosted.
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Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:28 am

Well, the truth is, healers slacking happens. As for the five points, I don't know where else you'd put them that would be better without sacrificing something else to perhaps get down into Crusade or Sanctity Aura. To each his own, I suppose.
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Postby Jonlo » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:40 am

Argali wrote:I do have tankadin, and i do keep track. So far the only deaths averted are from pug healers being crap, guildies falling asleep, or slacking, or in one case being legitimately crap, or cc not doing their job.

It does do a lot, but I think for 5 points it's terribly overcosted.



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Postby Seloei » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:56 am

the code which uses to track AD deaths is bugged atm, i had it turn on "announce warnings" and everytime i dropped AD happily announced that it averted my death! only thing is, im not alive. It didn't say it before i died, it said it right after i did.

Total times it saved me on hyjal trash last night 4. which is worth enough for me not to spec out of it. a wipe on hyjal trash means 30 more minutes of trash which is.....
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Postby Argali » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:18 am

For 5 points lying about, move some into Imp. seal of crusader, or PoJ, or reckoning.

If you're going to AoE tank, where you'll get hit for lots and lots while below 35%, then it's good, I jsut don't like it in general.

Ravager is good.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:39 am

Argali wrote:For 5 points lying about, move some into Imp. seal of crusader, or PoJ, or reckoning.

If you're going to AoE tank, where you'll get hit for lots and lots while below 35%, then it's good, I jsut don't like it in general.

Ravager is good.
Saved me on Sathrovarr because the healer still had a couple seconds of the portal debuff.
Saved me on Supremus because the healers took too long to get in range.
Saved me on Naj'entus because the healers were dumb.
Saved me on Illidari Council because the healer was running away from blizzard and had holy fire and was out of range of most healers.
Saved me on Zul'jin and on Nalorakk due to a bad avoidance streak.



A tank's job is to survive first, annoy second. Unless you really laugh at a place's gear requirement, you are making the healer's job harder. At least that's how I see it.I work on having all the survivability I can, to then think of threat.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:10 pm

Depends. I consider annoying healers more important than surviving.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:28 pm

Worldie wrote:Depends. I consider annoying healers more important than surviving.
That's the part where I pull and tank 2 packs at once of whatever can't stun me forever.
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Postby balrogg » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:26 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Saved me on Sathrovarr because the healer still had a couple seconds of the portal debuff.
Saved me on Supremus because the healers took too long to get in range.
Saved me on Naj'entus because the healers were dumb.
Saved me on Illidari Council because the healer was running away from blizzard and had holy fire and was out of range of most healers.
Saved me on Zul'jin and on Nalorakk due to a bad avoidance streak.


it seems like youre promoting ad, but it really just sounds like you could save yourself 5 talent points if you had better healers.

essentially, ad depends on the individual; what youre role is, what youre tanking, how reliable your healers are, etc. personally, i see it more as a crutch, as for the most part, you shouldnt be hovering below 35%. however, due to all sorts of circumstances, it does happen, in which case ad may (or may not) prevent a wipe.

my suggestion would be to make it 3 points instead of 5, tankadins have enough point allocation issues as it is.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:33 am

What i'm trying to say is that shit happens, And no matter how much you can say "get good healers", they are as prone to failures as we are(in before LOL WE DON'T). Those occasions were the difference between a kill and a wipe, that just can't be denied. Minimizing risks is one of our jobs as the guys who will get raped with our own ribs first.
I'd love to shave off 2 talent points from AD and still keep the 5/5 benefit >.< But I don't see that happening.
Last edited by Snake-Aes on Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:35 am

balrogg wrote:it seems like youre promoting ad, but it really just sounds like you could save yourself 5 talent points if you had better healers.


The fact of the matter is, you're not gonna have a perfect scenario every time, and Ardent Defender is one of our very few tools available to deal with situations when your healers AREN'T perfect. Or you take a crush in between shield refreshes. Or some retard takes the wrong portal. Or the priest forgets your fear ward. Etc, etc, etc.

And again, you're not giving up 5 points for anything worth getting unless you drop a bunch of other stuff, too.

Snake-Aes wrote:What i'm trying to say is that shit happens, And no matter how much you can say "get good healers", they are as prone to failures as we are(in before LOL WE DON'T). Minimizing risks is one of our jobs as the guys who will get raped with our own ribs first.
I'd love to shave off 2 talent points from AD and still keep the 5/5 benefit >.< But I don't see that happening.


Goddang it, beat me to it.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:45 am

Personal preference

I don't have it, i feel guilty everytime i drop below 35% HP.

However, they insisted for me to go for more aggro, so they stfu and heal me more :)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby kalbear » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:29 am

Every time I see the 'get better healers', I wonder what realm you play on where these better healers are all just hanging out, waiting by the phone, hoping that some day that prot pally who can't survive all that well will call them and invite them to the prom.

Every time I see that, I wonder if they tank with some 2-h spelldamage mace and say 'stfu, healers, it gives better threat!'. Or if they're wearing cloth with huge spelldamage instead along with that dumb trash drop cloak from Kara.

As a tank, you have two jobs: don't die, and don't let your friends die by keeping the mob interested in you. Not dying is absolutely part of your responsibility. It is also the healer's responsibility, but you can make that easier and survivable. The easier that you can survive, the more that those healers can spare time to let your dumb DPS that has never remembered to bring bandages and moves in flame wreaths live a bit longer.
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