Remove Advertisements

please settle an argument

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Postby Kelaan » Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 pm

If you do go on this run, make sure you bring a mod like GrimReaper -- so you can say, "Look -- Tankzilla took a 3k hit, a 6k crit, a 5k crush -- and died in the period of time where healers were already casting their max heals-per-second heals."

If DPS is not a sticking point, I'd consider going as prot spec, but just wear dps gear -- so you can pick up and tank when he can't. (Conversely, say "Guys, give me 10 minutes, I'll port and respec andwe can have an uncrushable tank. Healers -- what do you say?")

Agreed with the others -- crushable/crittable tank is doing it COMPLETELY WRONG.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 4:37 pm

Kelaan wrote:If you do go on this run, make sure you bring a mod like GrimReaper -- so you can say, "Look -- Tankzilla took a 3k hit, a 6k crit, a 5k crush -- and died in the period of time where healers were already casting their max heals-per-second heals."

If DPS is not a sticking point, I'd consider going as prot spec, but just wear dps gear -- so you can pick up and tank when he can't. (Conversely, say "Guys, give me 10 minutes, I'll port and respec andwe can have an uncrushable tank. Healers -- what do you say?")

Agreed with the others -- crushable/crittable tank is doing it COMPLETELY WRONG.


I've got GrimReaper and I'm planning on utilizing it if it comes down to it. There's a mage coming along, so I'll have an easy port to IF for a quick respec, or I'll stay prot with SoC and "dps" like that. lol. He hasn't responded at all to what I said last.
retrofade
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:33 am

Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 13, 2008 4:43 pm

The dude is obviously wrong about a lot of things, including pallys not being able to tank Gruul until they have T5 gear...

The problem is, if he's wearing gear that has him at 17k health with just kings, I'm assuming then, that he's got some T5/T6 badge gear, which also probably explains how he has low defense. If that is the case, then he likely won't die in kara, as he, and presumably his dps/healers out gear the place. My concern is that the "welfare epics" in this case are simply going to reinforce the lunacy of his tanking style and beliefs about pally tanks going forward.

Since he believes pally tanks can't tank anything more difficult than kara until they are wearing T5ish gear, then he's got a bit of some circular logic going on that justifies his insanity, because he sure as hell isn't tanking Mag/Gruul when he's crittable.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9640
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Boomtank » Tue May 13, 2008 6:07 pm

sometimes if im getting low in mana ill sit down during attunemen/moroes/curator/illhoof so i can get crit and then get mana back.

wouldnt do it on anything hard though
Image
User avatar
Boomtank
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 6:52 pm

oye ve

I reject your logic and papercrafting and will go off my personal experience.

A. prince hits for 2.5k on me. mitigation am good.
B. im not at 17k hit points...i SELF BUFF to 17k hit points, i havent been under 18k on prince in a while, depending on what im flasking (since i have the stam i normally flask damage but if i feel its needed i do stam) and availability of a lock im over 20k raid buffed. couple that with the damage reduction at 35% (6.6ishk of my health at that point, LESS than a prince crit) and im not overly worried about the whole thing. the preists pack heals in very fast, and they tend to heal for over 7k, so the likelyhood of a crit killing me is slim to nill. in fact. its happened ONCE. and that was when he got behind me while moving to dodge an infernal.

If you want to defend the slow and steady method, thats cool. BUT, interesting as this discussion is, i get the feeling that your getting unnaturally riled up. [GM] can make his own judgement, i presume he will be grouping with you alot in the future, and hes grouped with me a bit now. so he can compare the play styles and pick his own.

for gods sake, there are more than one way to skin a cat. dodge-a-din-because-the-book-told-me-too is one way....but berzerkenganger is another. and while you may not feel up to trying it... IT WORKS.


lol, wow
retrofade
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:33 am

Postby Levantine » Tue May 13, 2008 7:07 pm

Lol, what the hell kind of priests is he running with? I'm getting towards Kara geared on Terrin and my Greater Heals hit for MAYBE 4.5k non-crit, and Priests DO NOT stack anything that gives us spellcrit. I have ~10% crit rate. Lol, he's such a dumbass.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10817
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Postby DracoTB » Tue May 13, 2008 7:14 pm

I reject your logic and papercrafting and will go off my personal experience.

Translation: Putting forward an argument based on fact and solid theory will not change my belief that I am uber 1337
Image
DracoTB
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:45 am

Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 8:21 pm

I give up..... talking to a brick wall. lol

and as to seeing what happens when the time comes...well the time has come, has been coming since before BC, and will continue to come during FT. My techniques work. Its possible that they only work for me and a select few other of the older paladin tanks (the new kids just copy paste FOTM builds and never question things) but they do in fact work just fine.

Is it not written, anyone who believes there is only one way to play a game is not actually playing a game?
retrofade
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:33 am

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 13, 2008 8:52 pm

20k buffed..yeah he won't be wiping crushable on prince, but the healer are suffering.

Seriously? Talk to the gm. Tell him the guy is being crittable, extremely susceptible to spike damage, and a toll on healers.
Bring him here if you want, the gm. If he also just goes by what the other guy does, you're screwed, you did your part, and now leave.

I dunno how your guild is, but it doesn't sound like you're going past kara atm.

Gave a shot at za? Bear and Lynx will shred him so fast if they crit at all it's not even funny.

18k POST-DIVISION lash? lawl
Silence + crit? Oops.
Frenzy + Crit? Yeah...

He won't go past 25-mans either.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15525
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby Wulfhere » Tue May 13, 2008 9:07 pm

retrofade wrote:
[snip]
I the preists pack heals in very fast, and they tend to heal for over 7k, so the likelyhood of a crit killing me is slim to nill. in fact. its happened ONCE. and that was when he got behind me while moving to dodge an infernal.


[snip]


Well, there is why it works for him. If your guild has priests that are routinely healing for 7K/cast (highly doubltful), anyone in half blues/greens could probably tank prince. If you had priests that were wearing gear that Prince was originally intended for, they would probably be dropping ~4K max GH, which they obviously would not be able to spam for the whole Prince fight with blue/T4 dps. Assuming our friendly paladin tank was also in half dungeon blues/Kara epics and crittable/crushalbe, he simply couldn't survive Prince.

Saying that taking tank that has 20K hp buffed with T5/T6 geared healers to content designed for a 15K hp tank and blue/T4 healers validates his tanking method is assinine.
Wulfhere
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:01 am

Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 13, 2008 11:53 pm

Exactly, you won't prove this dude wrong because his ideas are so screwed up they are actually somewhat correct. The issue is, we all know tanking Gruul, Mag, ZA while being crittable is stupid. The thing is, so does he, he just knows it for the wrong reason. He seems to think pallys just simply don't have the gear available to tank them, which is absurd.

However, it's not absurd when you gear like he does. After that level of progression he talks about actually wearing proper gear and how pallys are as good as any other tanking class, go figure, wear proper gear and you all the sudden don't suck. His logic is completely insane. Clearly his way doesn't work and that's why he can't tank the next level stuff, but he won't admit that, he writes it off to bad gear being available. To prove him wrong, you have to show him that you can tank those bosses, then maybe he'll rethink things.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9640
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed May 14, 2008 4:05 am

It's incredible how you can give a person the best gear available and they can still Do It Wrong®

Link other paladins to your gm and maybe him
People like me, Worldi, Lore, Invisusira, Aalryn, whatever. We've all tanked prettty much everything in the game(Well, i didn't... matter of time >.>), including stuff that he says we can't.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15525
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby Levantine » Wed May 14, 2008 5:49 am

Personally, I like how he referred to himself as an older more experienced Paladin.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 10817
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Postby Worldie » Wed May 14, 2008 5:51 am

Did anyone tell him about a 20k crit on Maghteridon and how happy my healers were?

Ok that was intentional, but the simple fact of how a crit made me go from 100% to 5% and if i didnt Dodge the following hit i would have been destroyed in full T6 on a T4 boss must mean something)

Tbh the funniest situation would be if he actually died for a crit. Then you'd just have to write in raid the GrimReaper, and go like "oh but didnt you say that being crittable is not important? who is going to pay the repairs for this wipe that we could have avoided if you could have been arsed learning to play?"
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13152
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed May 14, 2008 5:57 am

Worldie wrote:Did anyone tell him about a 20k crit on Maghteridon and how happy my healers were?

Ok that was intentional, but the simple fact of how a crit made me go from 100% to 5% and if i didnt Dodge the following hit i would have been destroyed in full T6 on a T4 boss must mean something)


Based on what we were told of his replies, he'll say "See? I told you pallies can't tank without overgearing!"


That paladin simply blocked inside his mind the idea that paladins need to be crittable. They don't. Any 25-man boss worth it's salt will do enough damage for the paladin to not go oom eevn if he's avoiding 70% of the attacks and not receiving a single crit or crush.

What's a full threat cycle's mana cost? 1400? 1500? Let's say it's 1500. Which means the pally has to be healed for about 15000 damage every 10 seconds to keep the cycle working. 15000 damage in 10 seconds is 1500 damage per second. Almost every raid boss does that dps, otherwise healers could keep tanks alive solo on a 25-man
Last edited by Snake-Aes on Wed May 14, 2008 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15525
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest