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Postby MichaelBerea » Tue May 13, 2008 11:20 am

retrofade wrote:here's a great quote from him...

waste of stats. but whatev. like i said, doing it my way still has given me more base stats than you have quoted in all feilds but spelldamage. so eventually the gear simply gives you no CHOICE but to be uncrushable. uncritable? bah, what do i care about that? prince only crits for one of *healer's name* heals.


dunno 'bout the rest of you, but I don't think I'd want to eat a prince crit or two during Phase 2


Tanking Prince while being critable or crushable reveals incredible ignorance. Defending the practice is inconceivable. My guess is he spends all his time on pvp where it is normal to need Giant Heal spam and wiping 1/3 of the time is considered a win.
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 11:22 am

Sweeney wrote:That guy's hilarious. I know he doesn't mean to be, but still.

All you need to do to settle the argument is bring any raid healer into the discussion, and ask them if they'd rather heal a tank who had 500 fewer HP or one that randomly takes 10k damage from 5k hits.

If you're doing this in person or on vent, be prepared to plug your ears, the laughter will be that loud.


the raid healer in this case is actually my girlfriend... and she's dreading tanking for him on Friday. Just joined this guild, and this guy is from another guild but tanks for them, they want me to run as ret this week, so I'm obviously not tanking.... so this should be amusing. I have about 1400 less health unbuffed, but I'm uncrushable and uncritable. He's at 15k and I'm at 13.6k
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 11:27 am

Im 3 points shy of your spelldamage...i dont think that it is significantly hindering my threat generation lol

Just because it is the 'accepted' way does not mean it is the only way, nor necessarily for low end content like this the BEST way. and im still going to suggest that *name of a learning pallytank* pushes for 15k+ base hit points as it will allow him greater flexibility in situations. Poor benighted tanks with 11k hit points or some crap cant AFFORD to just take stuff, they might want to waste good threat on dodging attacks...but as you progress into the midfeild getting your guild through trash/caek bosses faster (via more threat generation) is better. and you get threat by being hit as a paladin.


my head hurts
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Postby Aedolfmawini » Tue May 13, 2008 11:33 am

You may as well just link the entire argument, so we can watch in wonder.
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Postby Arcand » Tue May 13, 2008 12:28 pm

retrofade wrote:I have about 1400 less health unbuffed, but I'm uncrushable and uncritable. He's at 15k and I'm at 13.6k


On my priestess, I would hate healing him. Instead of a steady stream of healing, he's going to take spikes I'll have to unexpectedly deal with, which will yank me into 5-second rule and stop my regeneration.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 13, 2008 12:39 pm

Steady damage never kills. It's spike damage that kills because it will
1: Stop your healer regen if it's a priest. Priest healers live by trying to heal you without spamming heals, unpredictable damage will hurt it and on the long run the priest may be OOM.
2: Confuse your healers. They will see, most time, hits doing, say, 20% of your health bar. Suddenly it eats half the health bar. They may not react on time, or may simply lose it from there.
3: KILL YOU! You may think eating a crit is fine. It's not. On any boss that you don't grossly overgear, eating random crits will mean that one of them will catch you on low health. Your healers are not perfect, they can't keep you at 100% health all the time and no run oom in under 1 minute. A predictable tank is always the better choice for them to keep topped off all the times.


Let's take prince for example. He's fast. Very fast
His axes hit for what again, 3k?
Let's say he trashed, so 3k-3k-3k in under a second

You had 17k hp, it's now 8k
Oops, one of them was a crush, so now it's 6.5k
Ah, yeah, you're crittable. One of them critted and you're at 5k hp.
Say you received a 4k heal and he did another swing, 6k damage against 9k hp.
Had he thrashed again, he'd be dead.Had another hit critted, he'd be dead.
And he theoretically overgear the content.



Well, guess not.
Last edited by Snake-Aes on Tue May 13, 2008 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sweeney » Tue May 13, 2008 12:56 pm

So, um, what bosses has this guy successfully tanked? Why would they choose an out-of-guild tank over a guild tank when both of them have more than enough HP to tank anything in Kara? Are you guys going to have to bring 4 healers, or something? The mind boggles.

Just make sure your GF calls him on his BS when he blames the healers for a wipe. The combat log will be pretty clear.

I will grant there is one time when wearing the "OMG HP", crittable/crushable set is useful: if for some reason you're sitting LFG for a heroic. Just make sure you switch out before the run starts.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 13, 2008 1:01 pm

Ah, btw
Crittable tanks lose aggro to their healers if they're not salved

Wait, you'll salv a healer instead of wis him? Doesn't that kill part of their already frail regen because you take so much damage?
Hmmmmm!


The level of overgearing required to tank raids crushable(killer on even some t4 bosses) is high. On crittable, it's just not doable. Anything past kara(heck, even all in kara past Opera) will be bound to fail with a crittable tank, and the reason is that the person is too lazy to do their own job.
So much that when you have said overgearing, you'll perform better by wearing an uncrushable spell damage set than being crittable.

Critable tanks are Doing It Wrong®


The tank's job is to take the least amount of healing possible, and then do the most threat possible.
Last edited by Snake-Aes on Tue May 13, 2008 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 1:05 pm

Sweeney wrote:So, um, what bosses has this guy successfully tanked? Why would they choose an out-of-guild tank over a guild tank when both of them have more than enough HP to tank anything in Kara? Are you guys going to have to bring 4 healers, or something? The mind boggles.

Just make sure your GF calls him on his BS when he blames the healers for a wipe. The combat log will be pretty clear.

I will grant there is one time when wearing the "OMG HP", crittable/crushable set is useful: if for some reason you're sitting LFG for a heroic. Just make sure you switch out before the run starts.


he's evidently a friend of the guild and has tanked Kara for them the last month or so.... but yeah, its going to be interesting. She's planning on calling him out on it though, so that'll be fun. I really don't care what role I go as.... so long as I'm getting badges, but I'll go back to a city and respec if this guy keeps dying. lol
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Postby Baelor » Tue May 13, 2008 1:22 pm

retrofade wrote:
Sweeney wrote:So, um, what bosses has this guy successfully tanked? Why would they choose an out-of-guild tank over a guild tank when both of them have more than enough HP to tank anything in Kara? Are you guys going to have to bring 4 healers, or something? The mind boggles.

Just make sure your GF calls him on his BS when he blames the healers for a wipe. The combat log will be pretty clear.

I will grant there is one time when wearing the "OMG HP", crittable/crushable set is useful: if for some reason you're sitting LFG for a heroic. Just make sure you switch out before the run starts.


he's evidently a friend of the guild and has tanked Kara for them the last month or so.... but yeah, its going to be interesting. She's planning on calling him out on it though, so that'll be fun. I really don't care what role I go as.... so long as I'm getting badges, but I'll go back to a city and respec if this guy keeps dying. lol

If the plate tank for a run I'm slated to go on does not have 490 defense or doesn't know what a crushing blow is, I don't go on the run. Spike deaths because of the tank poo-poo'ing proper gearing cause me to die from unneeded wipes, the raid to run long, and me to get angry because I could do it better.

You're a saint for going on the run at all. I'd refuse outright.
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 1:28 pm

and im not arguing that someone should be taking chances on grull, or any other 25 man boss, but [guild name] isnt ON grull...and wont be for a while. nor should grull be something that a kara geared paladin tank takes on...the gear is simply not up to par (being mostly warrior gear) and t-4 is...margional...at best. Grull and early TC are warrior/druid playgrounds, untill you start getting T5-level (not saying specifically t5 itself) pally tank gear on the tank you should heal or ret it up and let those who have to worry about fewer stats hold the big boys.

once you get gear past solarion and leo, yes, the pally tanks are just as strong (and in hyjal STRONGER than) as the warriors and droods, by all means, aim for it, go pally tank nuts! but untill such point...you would be holding the dps back (and as any healer can tell you, more dps=less healing overall), and you CANT itemize your stats as well, or taunt as often (on the few instances where taunt works) as the meatsheilds.

So im speaking STRICTLY for current and readily foreseeable content, i think he should focus on aggro and soak so the runs he IS tanking are going to go fast. Hell, if your an evasion tank, it is in his BEST INTEREST to do so anyway. to diversify the tanking options.

the other option of course, is to simply go for all badge gear, in which case hes going to naturally end up with a boat-load of evasion (not good evasion like parry mind you) anyway, and should again be focusing his gem slots on stam.

(I logged out in stam gear after seeing what i could self-buff to, 17107 aint bad...but i need to get ahold of that za sheild for sure)


The "he" being referred to is our undergeared pallytank that's learning and gearing up. Here's my response, and I blatantly stole some responses from here :D

here's a scenario for you....

you've got 17k health, you're tanking Prince in Phase 2

his axes hit for say, 3k/ea, he can hit multiple times in a row. Lets assume he hits three straight (its happened to me)

Now, three straight axes will drop you 9k health, so now you're at 8k, not a huge deal, healers hit big heals. But that isn't the case, you're crushable, one of them crushes, now you're looking at

3k
4.5k
3k

that's 10.5k damage, and now you're down to 6.5k health, that's doable I suppose. But wait, you're crittable as well, so your damage taken is

3k
4.5k
6k

that's 13.5k damage, and now you're down to 3.5k health

Do you see the problem here? There exists the chance that all three could be crits or all three could be crushing, or some combination thereof. Three crits is gonna kill you for the most part. Lets assume you don't die from the damage, but you're fucking your healer's mana regen up because they're constantly throwing their big heals at you... I don't know very many pally healers that can spam holy light for very long, don't know about you. Lets assume you only have two pallies in the Kara group, so two buffs... generally you're gonna want to give your healers wis and kings, for total mana and mana regen. Well if they're having to spam big heals on you, there exists the very real possibility of them surpassing your threat. Healers want to heal steady damage, not spikes due to crushes and crits, especially priests, they don't want to be spamming heals, because it royally messes up their mana regen, which is super important for them.

As far as avoidance goes... it is what you want to focus on, more than health. Dodge is your best source of total avoidance, as you get more % per point. Parry is okay, but not desirable in comparison. Being critable and crushable makes no freaking sense... plain and simple. There is no good reason for it. You haven't provided a legit reason for it. If you stack stam but aren't uncrushable or uncritable, you're going to be taking more net damage, because a lot of what hits you will be unmitigated by block, so you're taking a full hit, crush (1.5x), or crit (2x), so while you have more health to look pretty with, you're doing yourself a disservice because you'll take more damage in the end. If you ask pretty much any healer who they'd rather heal... the tank that's uncrittable and uncrushable with 13.6k health or the tank that can be crit and crushed with 15k health... every single one of them (if they know what they're doing anyway) is going to choose the tank that's uncrittable and uncrushable.
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Postby dmok » Tue May 13, 2008 1:30 pm

I'd stay prot, be the "OT" for the night, and when he dies from getting critted pick up the boss and finish the fight. THEN, have the healers remark how much easier it was with you tanking and how not taking 8-10k crits meant it was significantly easier on their mana.
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 1:31 pm

methinks he has a failure in understanding pallytanking
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Postby Baelor » Tue May 13, 2008 1:38 pm

retrofade wrote:methinks he has a failure in understanding pallytanking

He doesn't fail to understand pally tanking, he fails to fully comprehend effective health theory. Stamina is king, but armor, avoidance, 490 defense, and uncrushable are his loyal subjects. A king without a court is nothing.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 13, 2008 1:39 pm

He fails to understand tanking at all.
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