please settle an argument

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please settle an argument

Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 9:46 am

So, I'm debating another pallytank, he's trying to tell me that being uncrushable and uncritable isn't something to be concerned with, at least as far as Kara/Gruul goes. His argument is that by taking more damage by being crit/crushed, you'll be able to regen more mana through healing... and that to offset this, you just need to stack stam. So since you're taking more damage, and getting more mana back as a result, you're able to generate more threat, which means that the fight will go faster because the dps won't have to hold back.

Now, I very much disagree.... my theory is that I'm going to be taking damage anyway, and I'm going to be regenning mana. Threat generation has never been an issue for me... I run with about 400 spell damage with a wizard oil. Mana can be an issue at times, but I generally have such a massive threat lead that I can keep JoW up on the mob/boss, and swap to SoW if necessary to get a little more mana.

Both philosophies seem to work to one degree or another... I've tanked all of Kara and HKM, along with Mag channelers, and lots of heroics. Haven't made it into TK/SSC with the pally yet (played my mage as my raiding main for a long time), but it seems like my tanking philosophy, at least in terms of avoidance/mitigation, seems to be the more valid one as you progress further along.

Am I completely off base here?
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Postby Solessa » Tue May 13, 2008 9:55 am

Hes an idiot...you generate more than enough threat while tanking gruul by taking his normal hits as blocks...

And if he is really worried about threat pot/AW or equip a threat trinket/shield


The end bosses of Kara/Gruul are all about getting uncrushable...thats what they check for tanks
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Postby Aedolfmawini » Tue May 13, 2008 9:58 am

If you are wearing the gear that the T4 instances are designed for (i.e. kara drops), you damn sure had better be uncrittable/uncrushable. You can't afford to take those kind of hits in that gear.

If you are wearing a bunch of badge/ZA+ crap, you still better be uncrittable. There is no excuse, EVER EVER EVER, to be taking crits as a tank. Being under uncrushable by a few percent is not as big a deal, since you will still take overall less damage simply because of your gear, and you WILL need the mana from getting hit. I honestly prefer to stay uncrush and simply gear down my avoidance stats for block/gear up my SD when tanking the lower stuff, cause healers tend to go to sleep when you take no damage, then you might die when you take a couple odd crushes in succession.
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Re: please settle an argument

Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 13, 2008 10:00 am

retrofade wrote:So, I'm debating another pallytank, he's trying to tell me that being uncrushable and uncritable isn't something to be concerned with, at least as far as Kara/Gruul goes. His argument is that by taking more damage by being crit/crushed, you'll be able to regen more mana through healing... and that to offset this, you just need to stack stam. So since you're taking more damage, and getting more mana back as a result, you're able to generate more threat, which means that the fight will go faster because the dps won't have to hold back.

Now, I very much disagree.... my theory is that I'm going to be taking damage anyway, and I'm going to be regenning mana. Threat generation has never been an issue for me... I run with about 400 spell damage with a wizard oil. Mana can be an issue at times, but I generally have such a massive threat lead that I can keep JoW up on the mob/boss, and swap to SoW if necessary to get a little more mana.

Both philosophies seem to work to one degree or another... I've tanked all of Kara and HKM, along with Mag channelers, and lots of heroics. Haven't made it into TK/SSC with the pally yet (played my mage as my raiding main for a long time), but it seems like my tanking philosophy, at least in terms of avoidance/mitigation, seems to be the more valid one as you progress further along.

Am I completely off base here?


Both philosophies don't work. The occasional crush isn't the end of the world, some will sneak through anyhow, but why not eliminate them as much as possible? Use pots, Jow, Demon Runes, Downranking, threat gear etc if mana is an issue. Crits however will absolutely destroy you, a growth 10 Gruul crit would hit for like 18000 damage.
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well

Postby Mavrix » Tue May 13, 2008 10:04 am

The mechanics of the game dictate the absolute necessity of uncrittable and uncrushable for boss raid tanking. If you are tanking a raid boss and not meeting those criteria, quite simply 'you're doing it wrong'.

Any person that plays a tank that is ever crittable is an idiot.

Any person that plays a non-druid tank that is crushable on boss fights past heroics (bosses in heroics don't crush) is worthless and possibly even harmful to the group they are in and are doing a disservice to their class.
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 10:09 am

I was about 99.9% certain I wasn't completely off my rocker on this.... just figured I'd check and be sure.
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Postby MichaelBerea » Tue May 13, 2008 10:24 am

retrofade wrote:So, I'm debating another pallytank, he's trying to tell me that being uncrushable and uncritable isn't something to be concerned with, at least as far as Kara/Gruul goes. His argument is that by taking more damage by being crit/crushed, you'll be able to regen more mana through healing... and that to offset this, you just need to stack stam.


First of all, he is right. Second, he is wrong about why.

If you are being hit by a level 73 you need to be uncrushable (102.4% miss/block/parry/dodge). Anything less will hinder the group.

On the other hand, most people start off in Karazhan and Gruul’s Lair as OT. An Off-Tank there does not need any stats other than 485 defense (uncritable) and sufficient stamina/armor/threat. These days, it is very hard to get the gear from regular 5-mans which would help you reach uncrushable pre-KZ.

One exception is if your healers are in poor gear or are not specced for their role. The other major exception is if you want to get through the instance faster. Tanks who take less damage let you replace healers with dps, speading everything up.
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 10:26 am

MichaelBerea wrote:
retrofade wrote:So, I'm debating another pallytank, he's trying to tell me that being uncrushable and uncritable isn't something to be concerned with, at least as far as Kara/Gruul goes. His argument is that by taking more damage by being crit/crushed, you'll be able to regen more mana through healing... and that to offset this, you just need to stack stam.


First of all, he is right. Second, he is wrong about why.

If you are being hit by a level 73 you need to be uncrushable (102.4% miss/block/parry/dodge). Anything less will hinder the group.

On the other hand, most people start off in Karazhan and Gruul’s Lair as OT. An Off-Tank there does not need any stats other than 485 defense (uncritable) and sufficient stamina/armor/threat. These days, it is very hard to get the gear from regular 5-mans which would help you reach uncrushable pre-KZ.

One exception is if your healers are in poor gear or are not specced for their role. The other major exception is if you want to get through the instance faster. Tanks who take less damage let you replace healers with dps, speading everything up.


he's talking MT role, not OT.
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Postby Exalt » Tue May 13, 2008 10:29 am

He might potentially be correct in saying that being crushable/crittable is a good thing for kara/gruuls.....


.... if he's running with T6 dpsers and T6 healers.


Maybe....


Probably not.... but maybe.
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Postby Solessa » Tue May 13, 2008 10:33 am

For Kara...I still wouldn't do that because I go in and solo tank with two healers...so we can have 7 dps...sure I burn through mana pots and the longest down time is me drinking...but its fast...and they key is not dying, cuz I pump out enough burst threat that trash isnt an issue...and on bosses that I might die on...they are all undead so...exorcism ftw
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 10:39 am

Solessa wrote:For Kara...I still wouldn't do that because I go in and solo tank with two healers...so we can have 7 dps...sure I burn through mana pots and the longest down time is me drinking...but its fast...and they key is not dying, cuz I pump out enough burst threat that trash isnt an issue...and on bosses that I might die on...they are all undead so...exorcism ftw


I've been known to solotank almost all of the trash in Kara as well... got 22% dodge, 20% block, and 16% parry, along with my 400 spell damage and two good healers, and I'm never in fear of losing aggro or dying generally, unless I pull way too many
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Postby Solessa » Tue May 13, 2008 10:45 am

Exactly...but the only way you would die in kara with that setup is....unlucky crits/crushes on prince/nightbane

So...stay 490 def and 102.4% and the world is right again
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Postby retrofade » Tue May 13, 2008 10:48 am

here's a great quote from him...

waste of stats. but whatev. like i said, doing it my way still has given me more base stats than you have quoted in all feilds but spelldamage. so eventually the gear simply gives you no CHOICE but to be uncrushable. uncritable? bah, what do i care about that? prince only crits for one of *healer's name* heals.


dunno 'bout the rest of you, but I don't think I'd want to eat a prince crit or two during Phase 2
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 13, 2008 10:59 am

retrofade wrote:here's a great quote from him...

waste of stats. but whatev. like i said, doing it my way still has given me more base stats than you have quoted in all feilds but spelldamage. so eventually the gear simply gives you no CHOICE but to be uncrushable. uncritable? bah, what do i care about that? prince only crits for one of *healer's name* heals.


dunno 'bout the rest of you, but I don't think I'd want to eat a prince crit or two during Phase 2


Uh, crits hit for double damage and crushes hit for 1.5X damage. Eating the occasional crush isn't so bad, eating a crit is really really dumb.
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Postby sweeney » Tue May 13, 2008 11:09 am

That guy's hilarious. I know he doesn't mean to be, but still.

All you need to do to settle the argument is bring any raid healer into the discussion, and ask them if they'd rather heal a tank who had 500 fewer HP or one that randomly takes 10k damage from 5k hits.

If you're doing this in person or on vent, be prepared to plug your ears, the laughter will be that loud.
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