Is Imp. Devotion aura worth the points?

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Poll ended at Thu May 15, 2008 8:17 pm

Yes
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No
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Total votes : 42

Is Imp. Devotion aura worth the points?

Postby Pritia » Sun May 11, 2008 8:17 pm

Okay, If my sig doesn't work here is my armory page:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... d&n=Pritia

I am wondering if i should drop the Precision and Improved Judgement(?) points for Improved Devotion Aura. Any Replies would be appreciated.
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Postby Jadlak » Sun May 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Imp devotion is completely worth the points.



For a healing paladin.
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Postby sweeney » Sun May 11, 2008 9:57 pm

Imp devotion is 5 talent points for a minor gear upgrade's worth of AC that only functions when you have Devo on. Compare that to the scaling Toughness has and look at how much armor you get per point -- it's just embarrassing how different the two are in usefulness.
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Postby tuberon » Mon May 12, 2008 2:03 am

While various arguments can and have been made for Imp. Judgement, Precision is by and far better for a tank than Imp. Dumb Aura.

The clothies shouldn't be getting hit by melee, so they shouldn't need the extra melee mitigation....
Warning: Above poster makes no claims to validity or sanity of said post.

Also... cake.
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Postby mazater » Mon May 12, 2008 3:07 am

Jadlak wrote:Imp devotion is completely worth the points.



For a healing paladin.

Actually I don't quite agree with that statement.

imp. Consentration aura > imp. Devotion aura in most fights I believe.

Since imp. Consentration aura reduces the silence time (Nalorakk AoE silence for example) and gives additional spell pushback resistance for casters/healers if there is AoE damage etc. involved in the encounter.

Auras also have a fairly small range wich can be a problem in some fights (Gruul for example).

When I'm healing, I haven't ever even thought about going to the tank group and using devotion aura, becouse it doesn't help much.

Imp. devotion aura is waste of points for holy, prot AND retribution paladins imho. Hoorray for useless talent :)
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 3:55 am

in reply to the person above regarding holy paladins...

I'm no expert on prot paladin, but I think I can give a few wise words on healbotting :)

personally my normal spec is 41/20 which includes redoubt, 3/3 imp RF and 4/5 toughness - a decent holy paladin spec which can off-tank non-boss mobs comfortably (considering I was raiding Illidan with 4 pieces pvp gear as well).

Improved Concentration Aura, at times does have its benefits versus Improved Devotion Aura - in raiding terms -> exactly one boss: Azgalor. Other bosses don't make this skill significant enough to cost so much points. You'd be better off spending less point in prot and place 5/5 in improved BOM for raid buffing.

Improved Devotion Aura might seem like a waste of 5/5 points for a mere 200+ armour that don't even scale, but there's always atlaeast one of you in the tank group and your tanks don't need your improved concentration aura. What they need is extra armour, 1k armour is alot of effective health. Since you'll be using this aura 90% of the time, an extra 5 points for 200 armour seems like a decent investment compared to the "highly unreliable if ever used at all" redoubt. You'll need to spend atleast 11 points into prot anyway for BOK.

Is imp.dev aura worthit? No. But it is better than other alternatives.
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Postby mazater » Mon May 12, 2008 4:23 am

Arquine wrote: but there's always atlaeast one of you in the tank group and your tanks don't need your improved concentration aura.

Wait wait wait.

You actually put a holy paladin to a tank group? :shock:

The only good thing a holy paladin can do in a tanking group is giving the armor buff, wich is nothing compared to, say, Enhancement shaman for totem buffs, resto druid for spirit buff (moar healing by the druid).

Imho, a holy paladin is way more useful in healing group using consentration aura for spell pushback resist and reduced silence times.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 4:37 am

I think it's a standard practice on the alliance side. We never had any shamans and even in TBC, shamans are rare at best.

First of all, as a prot paladin and prot warrior 1k armour is alot.

Secondly, spell **pushbacks** don't occur very often. 4/5 of MH bosses have no use of concentration aura, 8/9 of BT (except RoS p3) have no use of concencration aura. In places where there is a use of concentration aura, there's a better aura in place for it - for example fire for Illidan, dev aura for Bloodboil (ticks are physical).

Thirdly, an elemental shaman will benefit the casters group alot more than tanks, enchacement shamans for melee group and restoration shamans benefits the healer group way more than a paladin can offer.

Druid in tank group, probably is a good idea but doesn't make any significant difference. The contribution is still the same as a paladin's armour. Extra 200 healing versus extra mitigation. Depending on your philosphy. As a holy paladin, your tank first has to **not die** in order to heal it throw. It's never a case of insufficient HPS but rather tank dying too quickly. In most cases, the extra armour benefits them the most.
Last edited by Arquine on Mon May 12, 2008 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pizbit » Mon May 12, 2008 4:38 am

If you have a holy pally in the tank group, you have too many holy paladins and really should diversify or face issues.

That or you're running a 10man.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 4:42 am

Pizbit wrote:If you have a holy pally in the tank group, you have too many holy paladins and really should diversify or face issues.

That or you're running a 10man.


That's not true. We run between usually between 2-3 holy paladins, depending on weather the retribution dude shows up for raid or not. Given even if there is exactly one holy paladin, he should be in the tank group.

Also, we're 5/5 MH 9/9 BT , not 10 mans. Clearly it works for us, and most guilds I've been.

having said that,

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... &n=Arquine

that's the spec I usually go for. Personally for me, I'd rather have 5/5 redoubt, 4/5 toughness and 3/3 imp RF for off tanking most mobs and all of Hyjals' trash in this spec.

But consider, it's not purely just the dicussion weather it's 3/3 improved concentration aura versus 5/5 improved devotion aura. Given you want to take the 3/3 imp concentration aura (my spec's route) then you need to invest more than mere 11 points into prot. Those are points you can spend on improved BOM which will boost raid dps etc.
Last edited by Arquine on Mon May 12, 2008 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mazater » Mon May 12, 2008 4:48 am

Arquine wrote:
First of all, as a prot paladin and prot warrior 1k armour is alot.

Secondly, spell **pushbacks** don't occur very often. 4/5 of MH bosses have no use of concentration aura, 8/9 of BT (except RoS p3) have no use of concencration aura. In places where there is a use of concentration aura, there's a better aura in place for it - for example fire for Illidan, dev aura for Bloodboil (ticks are physical).

First of all, in any tanking group there is a protection paladin nowadays.

The protection paladin will use devotion aura unless he or other tanks outgear the encounter, wich means that a holy paladin with imp. Devotion aura in the same groups gives, what, 200 more armor? Yay...

Secondly:
Nalorakk - silence
Gruul - silence
Moroes - DoT
Sex lord - Silence from some adds, spirit bolt volley etc.
Zul'jin - DoT's (silence too?)

Just a few examples where imp. consentration aura is actually useful, I'm sure there is more but that's just from the top of my head.
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Postby Pizbit » Mon May 12, 2008 4:51 am

Maybe we run overly caster heavy then.

Enough healers to create 2 groups, so a spot for 1 per group there, plus we usually have some mages, warlocks etc...

Don't forget the holy pally should get benefits from their group members, and they get none other than a small health boost from the warrior shout.
Where as they could be with a spriest, resto shaman, moonkin etc.
Thinking only of the tanks and neglecting healing isn't a great idea.

//ed// since you ninja edited I will too, the imp aura isn't always used in every fight, but most fights have some sort of AoE damage where the normal aura alone will benefit the group.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 4:55 am

Mazater wrote:First of all, in any tanking group there is a protection paladin nowadays.

The protection paladin will use devotion aura unless he or other tanks outgear the encounter, wich means that a holy paladin with imp. Devotion aura in the same groups gives, what, 200 more armor? Yay...


not all, infact there's more guilds that don't run with a dedicated protladin compared to ones with. It works equally well with two prot warriors versus 1 of each. Given in the end of the day it's the skill of the player that matters most, and my guild has two very skilled prot warriors there's no reason to change this formula.

secondly as I mentioned above, improved concentration aura and improved devotion aura is not on the same tier. You're competing against improved blessing of might and other buffs for this talent.

Nalorakk - silence
Gruul - silence
Moroes - DoT
Sex lord - Silence from some adds, spirit bolt volley etc.
Zul'jin - DoT's (silence too?)


Yes, Gruul but I'm no longer at that "Gruul stage". Nalorakk, Moroes and Hex are all 10 mans - I don't think you need a spec "dedicated" to that and it's not game breaking. Zul'jin, not significant enough.
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Postby mazater » Mon May 12, 2008 5:00 am

Arquine wrote:Yes, Gruul but I'm no longer at that "Gruul stage". Nalorakk, Moroes and Hex are all 10 mans - I don't think you need a spec "dedicated" to that and it's not game breaking. Zul'jin, not significant enough.

This isn't about you, or me.

It's about general use for imp. consentration aura and devotion aura.
New guilds do need to look at their specs and see what's the most efficient way to raid, even 10mans.
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Postby Pizbit » Mon May 12, 2008 5:02 am

I'll toss this in, if you're AoE tanking at all, then there's no question about it, redoubt WILL provide superior mitigation.
When you're tanking you want to 1) stay alive 2) hold aggro. Redoubt provides the greatest benefit.

Sure your warriors may want some more armor but if you'll want to provide the smoothest possible journey to the boss. Have another pally who isn't doing any tanking pick it up if the raid leaders desire the MT has it.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 5:04 am

Pizbit wrote:Maybe we run overly caster heavy then.

Enough healers to create 2 groups, so a spot for 1 per group there, plus we usually have some mages, warlocks etc...

Don't forget the holy pally should get benefits from their group members, and they get none other than a small health boost from the warrior shout.
Where as they could be with a spriest, resto shaman, moonkin etc.
Thinking only of the tanks and neglecting healing isn't a great idea.

//ed// since you ninja edited I will too, the imp aura isn't always used in every fight, but most fights have some sort of AoE damage where the normal aura alone will benefit the group.


my apologies, I am trying not to multipost as I am doing now. I would have edited my last post to include this but I would not like be accused of ninja editing ;)

That's true comment about paladins should benefit from group buffs. But, doesn't it mean the same having a resto druid instead of a holy paladin in it's place? There is X amount of healers having X amount of spots, if a paladin take a healer group's spot then some other healer is sacrificed.

As a holy paladin i'd say we're the most independant of all healers. In most BT fights, there's alot of raid damage.

Illumination (Mana) 119,904 280 428 504
Spiritual Attunement (Mana) 36,991 469 78 616
Mana Restore (Mana) 21,600 72 300 300
Restore Mana (Mana) 15,006 6 2501 2704
Spellsurge (Mana) 8,280 828 10 10
Lifebloom () 16 7 2 3

that's the amount of mana gained in my last raid on Kalecgos (mind the later numbers, just consider the first - this is copy/paste from wws). I personally think the extra "health" from commanding shout won't hurt, given I have more room to play with by getting healed by other raid healers and regaining mana.

In most BT raids where raid damage is high, I consistently find my own mana topped off by spirit attunement - especially at Illidan, so while Shadow Priest, Restoration Shamans may benefit me - it's only very little given the amount of raid damage intake.

Other buffs are kinda nice, but again - besides mana concerns, it doesn't really warrant replacing a healer for another healer just because "I" the healer should get the buff instead of "him" the healer.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 5:07 am

Mazater wrote:
Arquine wrote:Yes, Gruul but I'm no longer at that "Gruul stage". Nalorakk, Moroes and Hex are all 10 mans - I don't think you need a spec "dedicated" to that and it's not game breaking. Zul'jin, not significant enough.

This isn't about you, or me.

It's about general use for imp. consentration aura and devotion aura.
New guilds do need to look at their specs and see what's the most efficient way to raid, even 10mans.


then what you hold true. Then you can always respec for that particular boss, like all tanks respec for specific encounters. If you're doing Gruul's Lair as progress then you should spec improved concencration aura. But given it's "Gruul stage", 1k armour is a huge jump compared to the benefits you 1k armour gives to a BT tank.

edit: I'll ninja edit this again. Given it's Gruul as progression raid then it's unlikely you'll have a prot paladin tanking this one. So an optimal setup assuming 3 paladins then 1 retribution paladin for variety's sake, you can have one paladin in the tank group with imp.Dev aura providing improved BOM and another providing improved concentration aura.

I guess we can only agree with disagree weather this talent is completely worthless. It's not good 5 points to spend, arguably but ...

a paladin doing all the bosses you've mentioned bar Azgalor will probably **not** be tanking, and will have almost no use for redoubt. He can pickup both if he likes.

a holy paladin who will be tanking will probably past that stage where they need improved concentration aura for the bosses mentioned.
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Postby sweeney » Mon May 12, 2008 6:35 am

I'm afraid I'm just not following you, Arquine. I suppose we're past arguing whether a tank spec can waste 5 points on Imp Devo, so I guess I don't need to. :)

It just seems self-evident to me that Imp Conc Aura comes in quite handy at times in a number of encounters, while 200 armor is never really a dealbreaker. Sure, you could live without either, but it's not like a holy paladin has many other useful talents they're dying to spend points on.

You're right that it's not a big deal either way (although the idea that a paladin wouldn't be considered to MT Gruul or would somehow not be considered useful in ZA befuddles me, but whatever. I think I'm probably just misreading you.)
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Postby Songblade » Mon May 12, 2008 6:45 am

Devo Aura gives 861 armor...

So that means improved Devotion Aura would give you 1205...

That's an increase of not even 400... its like 340...

That will never make or break a raid.

What WILL break a raid, however, may not be redoubt, but the talent it links to, Shield Specialization. On AoE trash, this is one of the better mitigative talents we have.

Don't get me wrong, Devotion Aura is pretty good, I still use it ALOT, but improving it is not worth it by any means.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 7:43 am

we're talking about holy paladin :)

if you follow the thread there's the 5th post saying the point is completely worthless


You're right that it's not a big deal either way (although the idea that a paladin wouldn't be considered to MT Gruul or would somehow not be considered useful in ZA befuddles me, but whatever. I think I'm probably just misreading you.)


i think on gruul other tanks have serious advantage over us, while paladin MTs have very little use for either talent really... points are almost always better spent elsewhere
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Postby Rorshach » Mon May 12, 2008 12:22 pm

Our tank group consists of:

Prot Pally
Prot Warrior
Tree Druid
Holy Paladin
Resto Shaman

A different group will hold the feral druid tank if we bring him (usually hunters and a shaman). Sometimes the Holy Paladin uses Imp.Conc. Aura for himself and the other two healers in the group, but sometimes he uses Devo. Aura for the tanks also depending on the fight. He is not spec'd into Imp.Devo. Aura but he does have 5 points in Imp.BoM for the melee.

When tanks are sitting at the armor levels that we are at while raiding Black Temple/Sunwell an extra 344 armor is not worth 5 talent points. That works out to about what, 0.2% mitigation at 20k armour? If that.

So totally not worth 5 talent points, its criminal how we have such a completely useless 5 point tier 1 talent.
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 7:05 pm

it still has way more use compared to improved rend :P
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Postby Arquine » Mon May 12, 2008 7:09 pm

Sometimes the Holy Paladin uses Imp.Conc. Aura for himself and the other two healers in the group, but sometimes he uses Devo. Aura for the tanks also depending on the fight. He is not spec'd into Imp.Devo. Aura but he does have 5 points in Imp.BoM for the melee.



unless he's not taking divine illumination, there's no way he can go for both improved concentration aura and improved BOM at the same time.
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Postby Worldie » Tue May 13, 2008 3:45 am

I do have imp devotion aura, just cause Redoubt i don't like (but i should take it if we go Brutallus with me tanking i gues...), and since i'm the one who uses Devotion when it's worth, moar armor is still moar armor, even if it's just 400.
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Postby Solessa » Tue May 13, 2008 8:17 am

I use ret aura...the holy pally in my group gets devo aura to get to kings in our tree since I specced out of it

Therefore I get the two I want...and on gimick fights I lose 400 armor for his conc...win, win
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