Tanks have feelings too

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Tanks have feelings too

Postby Discus » Tue May 06, 2008 9:15 am

I'm a casual player with pretty average gear and less than average skills (my hand to eye coordination and game/pc literacy is poor). I'm fairly self depreciating and will usually greet someone new in an instance by warning them of my ineptitude - sorry, I'm English :wink:

Recently I've been running instances and the criticism of my tanking from other players (mainly non guildies we pick up to fill groups) is making the instances aspect of the game unenjoyable. I've found myself avoiding instances and just grinding supplicants night after night. It seems in my realm (Ghostlands EU) outside of my guild many of the casual "fun" players seem to have departed and we are left with hardcore epic players, mainly in PVP gear, who are very serious about their play. To me it's a game to relax with after work is done and family are in bed.

I love the game and have spent a while building up even my entry level gear, so don't want to quit tanking and start from scratch to collect healing gear. Is this just a stage Tankadins go through ? (I'm just starting heroics). Should I swap to a younger realm? Or is my skin just too thin for level 70 tanking?
Discus
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:28 am

Postby ulushnar » Tue May 06, 2008 9:32 am

I never pug. Just don't do it.

That said, you're gonna get dicks who blame anyone other than themselves for wipes/deaths. And if they see an undergeared tank who's a little slow off the mark then that's an easy target. You've gotta be willing to deal with that crap.

If you enjoy doing it, then do it and f**k em! FWIW, if you went healer you'd probably get a tank moaning at you if they die. ;)
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
User avatar
ulushnar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5442
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 am
Location: Bollocks, Scotland

Re: Tanks have feelings too

Postby guillex » Tue May 06, 2008 10:06 am

Discus wrote:I'm a casual player with pretty average gear and less than average skills (my hand to eye coordination and game/pc literacy is poor). I'm fairly self depreciating and will usually greet someone new in an instance by warning them of my ineptitude - sorry, I'm English :wink:


NO tank should lose their value as soon as they're off the lot... oh, you meant self-deprecating?

That makes more sense. :P

What you need to do, is start weeding out (if you're going to continue pugging) the bitches from the good players, and build a friends list on that.

Then run with the same people. Hopefully you'll be able to run with guildies... but those good PUGgers should be kept in mind at all times.
Póg mo thóin
Image
User avatar
guillex
Moderator
 
Posts: 7490
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Tanks have feelings too

Postby Lookit » Tue May 06, 2008 10:08 am

Discus wrote:...and we are left with hardcore epic players, mainly in PVP gear, who are very serious about their play.


This made me chuckle :)

People who are decked out in PVP gear that can be obtained through BG's (So, namely Gladiator gear and any of the Vindicator or Veteran's offset pieces) are renowned for being *terrible* at instances. These are players who hit 70, sit in BG after BG grinding honor, then buy some "epics" and think they are awesome. They know little to nothing about aggro, proper CC, or really any PVE mechanics in general.

As for being "very serious about their play", if you've spent much time in a BG, you'll notice that it's pretty much a full time blame game. "Why did you nubs let them cap the tower!! omg you all suck!!" Someone used to that style of "teamwork" is going to be like sandpaper on your sack in an instance.

My advice would be to find a nice casual guild with a decent number of 70's who like to run 5-man's. You'll have *way* more fun running with mostly the same crew from night to night, as you get to joke around more and get accustomed to running together. No more deciding loot rules, no more explaining what symbols mean what, no more explaining how opening with a 6k pyro crit pulls aggro and leads to a dead mage.

Also, telling people how much you suck will probably make them think you suck :P
Image
User avatar
Lookit
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:17 am

Postby Kelaan » Tue May 06, 2008 10:29 am

Heroics can be very hard on new tanks like you (and me ;)). Of your DPS works WITH you (e.g., you use good CC, and they do things like stun mobs which hit *hard* or kick Charged Fist), you get a much moother run, though.

When starting heroics, pretend you only want one or two mobs hitting you, and the rest need to be CC'ed. You're going to need a metric ton of stamina and armor -- remember that they were originally intended to be run once you'd gotten most everything you needed from non-heroics. Now that DPS can gear through PvP, they will be better geared than os quite often.

DPS can always throttle back their damage. They can /dance in between shadowbolts, if necessary. You dying in heroics WILL happen, but hopefully not often; if your healer is good, and your group can work with you, you should be able to do them. Do things like whisper the rogue and say, "These things are hitting me /really/ hard; can you work on stunlocking one of them? That'd help me a *ton*." (Good rogues will say yes.) The ones who are willing to help you get on the friends list. (Similarly, ask warriors for demo shout and thunderclap (if CC permits).)

Great advice to build and cultivate a friends list.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Postby Wyleai » Tue May 06, 2008 11:15 am

If they were guildies I'd get WWS and post charts of who's slacking.

Since they're not, get Recount and spam tables to party chat. The data isn't as good, but it is something.

That said...

Consider after the fact if and where they might have a point.

1. Are you losing aggro in places where you shouldn't? (as opposed to suffering from an aggro ninja like a pet with growl)

2. Are you taking more damage than a healer properly skilled for that level of content should be able to keep pace with? (for me, it helps that my main is a healer. When a healer says I'm taking too much damage, I can just judge whether or not I could heal myself to see if they're right or wrong).

3. Is there really a 3? I mean if you think about it the 'job' of the tank is easy to describe - everything hits you and you stay alive. How you achieve that is a matter of skill and style, but if you pull it off, you did your part.

Do note that being a good tank means being fast on reactions and doing a lot more when the action is there than anyone else. I was a pretty active healspam - doing more and moving about more than any other healer, but compared to how I play my tankadin, I might as well have been afk for all I was doing. Tanking is serious business. :P

People with comments about how you should play are a dime a dozen. I get them all the time. I don't tolerate it, but I do analyze it later to see if there was anything valid hidden inside of all of the blame-itude.

The WWS / Recount stuff is great for showing where the fault really lies... But even without it a sharp observation can give you a comeback. Like a catching a hunter who claims you can't tank with 'why is your pet using growl?'


And yeah... now that you are obviously 70 and have reached into the instances probably enough to learn tanking - why PUG?

I PUGed my way from 1-70 and the core instances to learn how to tank against bad play, but now that I know that, I can go to my friends and tank for them and not have to put up with the other stuff.

If you don't have a good sized friends list yet, then sure, PUG a bit, and while doing it get vocal in chat to feel out the people and find the gems.

But as soon as you have a good list of people that you know are always 'looking for a tank' you're gtg. Skip the PUGs. Just log in when you log in, and whisper all those people with "tonight I'm running X, you coming?"

(yeah ok, over simplified, but do remember that as the tank if you ham it up a little you can essentially set the terms, and have your pick of groups.)
Image
Image
User avatar
Wyleai
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:05 pm
Location: San Francisco

Postby Kitria » Tue May 06, 2008 11:30 am

Attitude is everything.

Think you suck, say you suck, and you will suck.

Go in with confidence, and if you make a mistake nobody will notice. If you wipe from one of your mistakes, oops! Just have to keep pushing on.

At the very least go in thinking to yourself "I'm going to give this my best shot, and if it doesn't work at least I'll have learned something."
Image
User avatar
Kitria
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:46 pm

Postby Lalecize » Tue May 06, 2008 1:19 pm

Yep! Go in with confidence. One thing I do in heroic pugs is pull gingerly at the start to see how the healer keeps up (i.e. don't go grab all 6 at the start of SH Heroic unless you know the healer :D ).

Once I get a feel for the healer I open up and let loose. Don't let DPS rule you - YOU are the tank, YOU should be marking and be the party leader.

If any DPS messes with me, I warn, and then boot them. I also play a rogue and I can tell you, theres nothing better than an assertive confident tank, who says it how it is. Theres nothing worse than a tank saying "ZOMG can u mark plzz kk thks".

Pvp gear is a red flag. For example a similar item level geared warlock in PvE vs PvP gear can be huge. One of my guildey locks regularly pulls over 1000dps in heroics....last night I pugged a lock in full epic PvP gear of similar item level. 400dps is what I ended up with. Hence recount is invaluable.

Ultimately if you go in with confidence, you run the show, and tell people how it is - You'll do a lot better. I tanked heroic mech the other week after a night out on the town while I was completely smashed. I turned up and took the first pull in a tuxedo. Between my misspelt words, and constant cigarette breaks the DPS never moaned once - why? Cause I was the party leader, was marking and setting the pace. Im not saying to go get horridly drunk then tank....you get the idea lol.

Haha! Don't mess with the drunken tank or yee will get thee boots!
Lalecize
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:32 pm
Location: New Zealand

Postby Frickit » Tue May 06, 2008 1:29 pm

although my marking in heroics is skull and a bunch of unmarked, with the occasional sheep.
so if the cc who happens to be a knowitall wants to do the marking I let em. Easier on me. Im capable of doing the pulls however the group wants, and generally after a few minutes they say, frick can handle this just aoe.
Image
Frickit
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:34 pm

Postby Solessa » Tue May 06, 2008 1:40 pm

The key to tanking when undergeared....find a group of people to work with....and succeed.

The key to tanking when overgeared....go in and say check out my t6 now listen up if you want a 25 minute h-mech run.

J/k

But on a more serious note...ignore them. Unless they have a main that is a tank they have no clue what they are talking about...and if they do and they don't try to help you out...they are jerks and /ignore is for more than just gold spammers.

You got alot of friendly peopel here willing to help, and they actually know what they are doing. Use it :)
Image
Pally Tanking...all the work, half the respect, twice the insults.
Solessa
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:26 pm

Postby Wyleai » Tue May 06, 2008 6:25 pm

My marking is simple:

Skull is whatever I judged last, cause all my judge/seal macros set skull.

Circle is the pat I'm trying to watch to see if I should pull it now or after the desired mob. Why circle? Its big and orange and tends to color clash and stand out well, so everyone can spot the pat early enough to do something.

Every other mark is for things on the edges of the screen that I want to make sure are not turned into accidental adds, so I mark them if I think its dicey so as to have something floating on the screen warning me of where it is.

Anything nearish to the skull is pulled into consecrate, do I care about its mark? No.

Sometimes if I want DPS to kill something other than what I'm judging, that gets an X. Oh heck, I often use X to let people know what will be my second primary target after I'm bored with skull.

One thing changes that... If I see a sheep or a sap anywhere I can get too, that becomes my primary target. Unless I asked for it to be CC'd for a reason, I always break CC, aoe everything down, and then tell people again to stop CCing. :P


I've tanked most of my content undergeared. In fact, since my toon hit about 64 I've been "running" 70s through instances. I don't comment much about it other than saying something like "everybody gets salvation or there's no way I'll be able to hold aggro against you folks." And then from there I just do it. If we make it or we wipe, I don't assign blame either way. And if its a wipe, I just shrug and repeat.

If you act like you can get it done, even after fail once or twice, they generally assume something else was the reason for the failure, and keep going. If the failure was me and was able to understand why, I try to adjust. If not, again, rather than assign blame (save for with overtly bad players like mage tanks) I just keep going.
Image
Image
User avatar
Wyleai
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:05 pm
Location: San Francisco

Postby Worldie » Tue May 06, 2008 6:29 pm

Kitria wrote:Attitude is everything.

Think you suck, say you suck, and you will suck.

Go in with confidence, and if you make a mistake nobody will notice. If you wipe from one of your mistakes, oops! Just have to keep pushing on.

At the very least go in thinking to yourself "I'm going to give this my best shot, and if it doesn't work at least I'll have learned something."

I must absolutely quote this.

Recently, to give myself some moral support while tanking, i just put the threat meter right near my action bar, and while looking at it, i remind myself that I am the boss there, i'm the one who is tanking your ass, and noone will hurt you so bad to steal your attention from me.
Leotheras is a good example for this... WHO IS THE MASTER NOW?

Be confident in yourself. Even if you are not sure, make yourself sure.

Attitude IS everything. Well, gear matters also, but not necessarly. WTS 1800ish TPS today on Kazrogal.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13432
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Mishdorf » Tue May 06, 2008 9:32 pm

This reminds me somewhat of the other night.

I go to run H Mech with a PUG. We get inside and I pull the 3 elves to the left. We don't wipe and they go down fast. The dps starts QQing about me not marking, so I assure them that I will mark in future. Next I pull the robot patroling on the left (without marking cause duh, it's only one robot). DPS starts QQing more and tells me to pass lead. I tell them fat chance and move on. I go to pull the patroling robot that comes out from the corridor to the left, and as I pull it, one of the idiot dpsers aggros the robot in the middle. We wipe. DPS QQ and quit the group (they were all friends). I get another invite to tank (out of the blue) and let the healer know. I go with the other group. 2 minutes later, the three dps and the healer are in lfg looking for a tank. I whisper the healer and ask him wtf he is doing. He tells me that he can't find another group.

Twenty minutes later he sends me a tell saying that they found another pally tank with 17k hitpoints. He also tells me that they wiped in the same spot. I just laugh.

Sometimes dps are stupid. Sometimes they are arrogant. In all cases, you are in charge of the group. Never let the dps tell you otherwise (remember, YOU are in demand especially in PUGs).
Mishdorf
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm

Postby Discus » Wed May 07, 2008 7:47 am

>oh, you meant self-deprecating?

:oops:

Thanks, forgot to mention I was literally illiterate as well as PC illiterate, it’s a wonder I can feed myself sometimes. Depreciation is a nice irony given my value to the guild DOES seem to be falling with time.

Thanks for advice all, looks like I need to front a little more, less of the self defecation (sic) and more use of words like “pwned” “leet” “FTW” just so my homies know how I “roll”. The problem I’m facing is principally from PUGs to fill dps/healing gaps. We are a small guild and often not enough 70s are in to run a 5 man so we need to PUG. But the PUGs we pick up are almost always way better geared and experienced than us. This really does seem a cultural change in the realm, less players but those still playing are mainly very serious. I wasn’t playing before the expansion but I’m wondering if I similar thing happened then? i.e. many of the casual players quit, leaving just the hardcore players until the expansion came out.

It is usually “welfare” epics in PUGs and, as one poster said, bad attitude and PVP seem to go hand in hand. It’s why I don’t do PVP at all. It’s also why I came to WoW late; I assumed the game was all PVP. I generally hand leadership over to whoever has most experience of the run, quite often it’ll be my first or second run only (I levelled through outlands without doing a single instance).

I have played as OT and healer in the pre-expansion world and hardly experienced anything but complements. But it seems the tank is the focus of the blame for wipes. If the dps pull aggro and die, it’s the tanks fault for not holding it, if the tank dies he’s taking to much damage for the healer to keep up, if I use consecrate I get told off for breaking CC, if I don’t I’m not maximising my threat.
Discus
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:28 am

Postby Ana » Wed May 07, 2008 7:56 am

People are just like that, I had someone I didn't even know whisper me as I was coming out of Scarlet Monastery and tell me my gear was bad for being level 70.

Of course I whispered back and told him to mind his own business... he just happened to catch me in a mix of ret/tank gear and a goofy 2-handed axe equipped. (I was in SM leveling my 2 handed weapons for shits and giggles and the hopes of some twink gear dropping.)

I hate clowns that feel the need to critique, and not in a good way other people. Constructive criticism is always and gladly accepted.
Anathematic / Megalomania / Tohuvabohu / Surrealistic
Ana
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest