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Threat problems.

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Threat problems.

Postby sibi5454 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:00 am

So I have been doing some tanking with my guild, after switching from holy, and following some guides on these forums for advice. Thanks to those who wrote them.

Anywho, as I said I have been tanking a lot more often with my guild in 5 mans, heroics, and OT some kara. I have no problem maintaing a threat lead on 95% of my guild, but that last 5% are kind of causing me some problems. One warlock in particular who manages to put out 1200dps (I think, my dmg meter has been buggy lately, it may be higher) on almost every single fight. I can barely manage to keep aggro off of him, and if I don't get to AS for the pull, odds are good that he will pull the mob off of me. His TPS (according to Omen which I watch closely) is almost constantly over 1000 with salv(which I personaly make sure he has). Mine usually sits anywhere from 300-650 area. I was wondering what I might be able to do to boost my TPS a bit more on those trash pulls. Or does he just out gear me that much? I usually have at least an adepts elixir on at all times. Either way, I feel my TPS is low, or I may be crazy. I also have the Helm of Righteousness which will give me the 2 pc and I use it for trash.(Planning on getting +spell dmg on gloves ASAP)

Typical rotation: SoR > AS > Judge > Cons > HS > SoR > Judge > Cons/HS (whichever gets off CD first) This is all full rank, cons will go to rank 4 after first mob is down on trash because I can handle anything he can dish out at that point. For bosses, I will stay full rank and toss in judged crusader after a couple JoRs, and he will still catch me.

My armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... il&n=Bulio

Lock in question: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Lockadaver
(not sure what his missing trinket really is)

Thanks for any help, and sorry for the long read.
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Postby Seloei » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:33 am

Not surprised he pulls aggro off you, he has massively better gear but if he knew how to "hold back" he wouldn't get agro off you, it will be a while before you can let him "go all out" in the set you have.
Also, get +2% threat on gloves not +20 spelldamage (scales better). The other pieces for threat will come later on, your just starting raiding so it will take time.

Also, if you have the spare mana, chuck a frisbee at the boss incase you see someone is gaining on you, it's a 1-2k bump on threat for a small risk. Don't try it on prince phase2 or nightbane tho, unless you are very confident. It makes you vulnerable to crushings for 1 second (cast time)
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Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:25 am

Seloei wrote:It makes you vulnerable to crushings for 1 second (cast time)
1 second plus any pushback. On prince p2 you'll take 3-4 hits easily if you try to cast it. Just don't :p Nightbane is easier since he's slower, tho. Again, confidence. Hammer of Wrath is free threat after 20% so be happy. the warlock outgears you, there's no way aroudn it. You can improve your enchants and gemming but it's very little towards more threat. Work on your pvp mace and badge pally gear.
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Postby sibi5454 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:54 am

Alright Thanks. At least it sounds like it isn't something I am doing.
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Postby sweeney » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:24 am

He'd peel the mob off an equivalently geared warrior or bear as well.

A DPSers job is to do as much damage as they can without pulling aggro; that includes him holding back when necessary. You definately want to keep your threat as high as you can, as that helps him do his job. But you can't do his job for him.

If your top DPS *mostly* doesn't have to hold back on bosses, then you're doing a good job. On trash, crit-heavy destro locks absolutely have to hold back a bit, but that's not the end of the world.
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Postby Sarutankah » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:55 pm

Warlocks have soulshatter for a reason - if he aint using it he aint playing as part of the team :)
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Postby Moses » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:19 am

Your lock outgears you and either doesn't understand PvE or is trying to prove how much dps he does by always pulling aggro. If it really bothers him you can talk to him about it and see if he understands what he's doing (he may just be a pvper who is used to balls to the wall 24/7). Another more passive aggressive way to handle it would just be to let him pull aggro and die often.

I think a good rule of thumb for tanking is to make sure you are protecting the healers. If a healer EVER gets aggro then I feel like it's my fault as the tank. DPS are kinda a grey area, I know it's my job to put out enough threat to let them do their job but in the end threat sits behind survivability in my gearing. Part of the job of a DPSer is to watch the threat, if they are not doing that is their failing not yours.
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Slightly different view

Postby cryptwind » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:29 am

My main is a lock with over 1400 Shadow damage (self buffed) and even as affliction with aggro reduction talents if the tank really under gears you you’re going to have aggro issues – Dots don’t stop ticking because the boss silences or knocks back - you don't get more aggro, but the lock does. And CoA does more DPS every few ticks – ramping up damage effectively.

For trash Seed of corruption can be up on 4 mobs before it detonates on the first and you can’t cancel it if it crits a few of the mobs. So make sure the healer knows he will be tanking those…. Have him sac a VW after a few seeds – it helps the healers.

If he’s Sac spec’d have him run with an imp out (he doesn't need to be sac spec'd to sa teh Voidwalker for a shield). If he’s destro – an 8-9K crit is going to break you, and destro aggro is VERY spiky.

I just did a partial Kara run with an under geared Bear and Warrior… without sacing my pet or using DD Spells we had aggro issues on trash – especially AOE pulls (no pally tanks).

On bosses it’s a different issue….we can modulate better since we have time to adjust – for some reason OMEN showed me lower than the tank but I pulled aggro at 20% life left . I was still showing as lower while I Drain Tanked him down, none of us could figure that out.

On the AOE trash I gave the tanks a good 20-30 seconds and they couldn’t do anything to hold aggro. He may have to drop some spell damage – running shirtless for rage as a warrior equivalent. He has to understand that you can only generate so Much TPS with the gear you have. I usually warn my guild mates, “I’m not Dorvan, so watch you aggro.”

My GM – who plays our MT complained about a lot of the things locks did – until he rolled one and found out that we really did know our stuff and aggro management is a lot more touchy for locks then people think. 5 minutes for soulshatter is an eternity. Our MT on his lock, died in Gruul’s 7-8 times . Aggro is harder on a well geared lock than people may think. It was fun to tease him for the same things he was upset about as a tank :).

Best to ask the lock to downgear and tell him it will be a longer run than he may want because of the lower threat caps.
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Postby Moses » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:37 pm

Locks shouldn't have to downgear. If your used to a T6 tank and running kara with a PuG you can't do 1400 dps and expect not to pull aggro. Just stop DoTing alltogether and pure shadowbolt spam if you have that much spell damage. You'll still pull your weight if you have that much spell damage and in the end the run will go quicker (healing dps wastes the healers mana). If it's just your tank that's weak and your healers are T6 just pull aggro, they're gonna be bored anyway.

My guild is all a lot better geared than me and we have a hunter that loves to pull aggro. I've gotten better gear with all the new badge stuff so it's harder now but if he does pull it I just let him deal with it. DPS that pull aggro are not my problem.
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Postby cryptwind » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:25 am

Moses wrote:Locks shouldn't have to downgear. If your used to a T6 tank and running kara with a PuG you can't do 1400 dps and expect not to pull aggro. Just stop DoTing all together and pure shadowbolt spam if you have that much spell damage.


Again I've been there and when my Dots pull aggro by themselves, then you need to downgear. The run I was on the healer wasn't T6 either, if they were it wouldn't be an issue. Besides if he down gears and pulls aggro it's less costly in repairs. :)
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Postby Tyaera » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:54 pm

Seloei wrote:Not surprised he pulls aggro off you, he has massively better gear but if he knew how to "hold back" he wouldn't get agro off you, it will be a while before you can let him "go all out" in the set you have.
Also, get +2% threat on gloves not +20 spelldamage (scales better). The other pieces for threat will come later on, your just starting raiding so it will take time.

Also, if you have the spare mana, chuck a frisbee at the boss incase you see someone is gaining on you, it's a 1-2k bump on threat for a small risk. Don't try it on prince phase2 or nightbane tho, unless you are very confident. It makes you vulnerable to crushings for 1 second (cast time)


there is a point where 2% threat outscales +20 spell damage and its very very high
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Postby Solessa » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:07 pm

2% threat outdoes 400 spell damage at about 400 spell damage...

Otherwise make sure salvation is on the lock...and tell him chill out...

The reality is that some classes/players whose gear level is near or above your really can out threat you anytime they want

We have 3 BM hunters that can pull threat anytime they want off any of our tanks...unless its on me on an undead in threat gear with wings up

Its a part of the playing as a team, so just do your best and you'll get the gear.
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Postby sweeney » Thu May 01, 2008 12:24 am

Just wanted to say I ran my alt (destro lock) tonight in Kara. For both our MT and for a Kara/T4 geared prot pally, I couldn't just go 'all out' on trash, and that's with just Kara gear.

I did get to see threat from the other side for a night, which was interesting. It felt to me like warrior threat generation was much more spiky, and not being used to watching for crits (I'm usually affliction) it was easier to stay in the safe zone with the paladin (since there wasn't a chance his threat would fail to spike when I got a crit or something). But even with salv, there was no way I could just start bolting from the start.
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Postby cryptwind » Mon May 05, 2008 1:36 pm

Sweeney wrote:Just wanted to say I ran my alt (destro lock) tonight in Kara. For both our MT and for a Kara/T4 geared prot pally, I couldn't just go 'all out' on trash, and that's with just Kara gear.

I did get to see threat from the other side for a night, which was interesting. It felt to me like warrior threat generation was much more spiky, and not being used to watching for crits (I'm usually affliction) it was easier to stay in the safe zone with the paladin (since there wasn't a chance his threat would fail to spike when I got a crit or something). But even with salv, there was no way I could just start bolting from the start.

Aggro management does take work and depending on the fight it becomes more of an issue. With our “normal” healers I can tank the trash as it dies, even with a lower geared healer I tanked Attumen (in cloth) when Omen was off.

Theory is all well and good, but I can and have given tanks a decent lead and pulled agro. There is a difference between theory and reality. I theory the Blessings deck has some of the best DPS in the game. In reality it’s very fight dependant.

Tank agro is spiky – shield Block – wait for the hit, revenge ! Sunder is a bit steadier unless they are saving rage for Revenge, waiting on Sunder/ HS (which are next swing) or have enough rage for devastate.
Pally agro is I get hit they take a little damage – they stand in consecrate they take a little more – judge spike. My aggro’s O.K. I can hold off judging to save mana.
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