Why is 'A' better than 'B' in two shields I'm looking at

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Why is 'A' better than 'B' in two shields I'm looking at

Postby Wyleai » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:15 am

Shield one:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25078
"of the beast"
+13 Strength, +13 Agility, +20 Stamina

Shield two:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25074
"of the champion"
+11 Strength, +17 Stamina, +11 Defense Rating

Tankpoints, which is of course a warrior addon, rates the first shield vastly higher than the second.

Some of this is obvious, armor and block and a little stamina.

But you're also losing defense rating. Looking the two over has got me wondering, just how much defense rating can I lose in favor of other things before it becomes a bad idea?

How do I sit down and calculate that sort of thing out?
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Postby Robin de tolens » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:18 am

Take the one which is looking the best :roll:

:D
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Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:21 am

Just look at it.

First one has more stam, and agi which is dodge. Agi plays a major role in your dodge % before 70.
Second one offers less stamina, and some defence which will give you less avoidance than the first.

Hence what tankpoints says.

Btw, tankpoints is not a warrior addon, it's a generic addon. It just tells you how good a item is for "general purpose". It actually assumes that you are already uncrittable.
Anyway, crittabilty aint rly a issue until you get to heroics. Nothing hits for enough to bother you until then.
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Postby roosevelt » Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:30 am

Pretty sizable chunk of armor and 9 block value difference.

To figure out how much def you "need" you have to take into account the mob level and figure out its crit chance against you, and thus how much reduced chance to be crit you need from defense.

I wouldn't worry too much about defense and being uncrittable while leveling. Its a great stat for avoidance but the level 63 shield offers a lot more effective health.
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Postby Seloei » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:12 am

The first one has a lot of armor (more than 1% mitigation at that level) and agility for huge dodge bonus and more stamina. It's a clear win-win situation

And tankpoints is a bit... biased to warriors since it gives strength a bit more credit and it has no spelldamage/spellhit :p
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Postby Candiru » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:29 am

Agi is only a little bit worse than defence rating for pure avoidance, and it has some armour too.

It doesn't increase your block rating though, but Agi isn't a bad stat for paladin tanks, its pretty similar to dodge rating.
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Postby Wyleai » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:32 am

Yeah it's pretty clear to me that the first shield is better, I'm just trying to break it down element by element to help me with making future judgments.

To which I've been very unclear on 'how much of 'x' can I give up in exchange for 'y'.

I've been working under an impression that defense rating is the most critical item on the list, but even if so, by how much has been unclear to me.
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Postby Wyleai » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:21 am

Worldie wrote:Btw, tankpoints is not a warrior addon, it's a generic addon. It just tells you how good a item is for "general purpose".


Well... here's where I think tankpoints fails as a paladin calculator:

Two helmets:

Underworld Helm
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30856
638 Armor
+16 Strength
+12 Agility
+42 Stamina

And;
Boulderfist Helm of the Elder
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24986
788 Armor
+38 Stamina, +25 Intellect, +10 Mana Per 5 sec.


Tankpoints says Boulderfist is somewhat inferior.
Tankpoints -99
EH: +18

Which means I left trying to learn the same facts again - why is one better or worse than the other. Here it again seems obvious that the int and mana boost are very handy, and armor difference is significant. Though my intuition reaches the opposite conclusion of the AddOn, and its just intuition - I can't really say -why- I think giving up 4 points of stamina and the agility is worth it.

And then there's the strength. I had a discussion with another leveling guild tankadin over strength. I put forth that it was no useful to tankadins, and he disagreed saying it added to block value. I'm pretty confident that that is not really of importance to us, but I did not know how to argue the point - on what basis am I reaching that conclusion other than a gut feeling and 'what other people said here.'


In other words, what I'm really hoping out of this thread is for someone to show me how to 'do the numbers' behind the analysis of tankadin stats rather than just trusting to what others say - or at least point me to a link where this bit of 'theorycraft' is explained for newbies to some degree. That's why I assumed to post it in basic training rather than gear or advanced - I'm looking for the 'starting point' in understanding the numbers. :)
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Postby Ciandin » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:19 pm

Look at the base defense of the items you are comparing (and inherent block value in the case of the shields). The items with the higher base armor have a higher Item Level. When at a loss for which item to take while leveling, just go with the higher iLevel. It won't matter that much in the long run.

ps: if your level 63, go grind out your sporregor shield and don't look back
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Postby Lookit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:30 pm

Wyleai wrote:
Worldie wrote:Btw, tankpoints is not a warrior addon, it's a generic addon. It just tells you how good a item is for "general purpose".


Well... here's where I think tankpoints fails as a paladin calculator:

Two helmets:

Underworld Helm
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30856
638 Armor
+16 Strength
+12 Agility
+42 Stamina

And;
Boulderfist Helm of the Elder
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24986
788 Armor
+38 Stamina, +25 Intellect, +10 Mana Per 5 sec.


Tankpoints says Boulderfist is somewhat inferior.
Tankpoints -99
EH: +18

Which means I left trying to learn the same facts again - why is one better or worse than the other. Here it again seems obvious that the int and mana boost are very handy, and armor difference is significant. Though my intuition reaches the opposite conclusion of the AddOn, and its just intuition - I can't really say -why- I think giving up 4 points of stamina and the agility is worth it.

And then there's the strength. I had a discussion with another leveling guild tankadin over strength. I put forth that it was no useful to tankadins, and he disagreed saying it added to block value. I'm pretty confident that that is not really of importance to us, but I did not know how to argue the point - on what basis am I reaching that conclusion other than a gut feeling and 'what other people said here.'


In other words, what I'm really hoping out of this thread is for someone to show me how to 'do the numbers' behind the analysis of tankadin stats rather than just trusting to what others say - or at least point me to a link where this bit of 'theorycraft' is explained for newbies to some degree. That's why I assumed to post it in basic training rather than gear or advanced - I'm looking for the 'starting point' in understanding the numbers. :)


When tanking, Intellect and Mana/5 are largely useless, unless you overgear the instance enough that you are not taking much damage. Spiritual Attunement and the occasional mana pot are all a tankadin needs in terms of mana.

12 Agility is a little over .5% dodge, with Kings, as well as an extra 24 armor.

With tanking in mind, I look at those two helms and see "+4 stamina and .5% dodge --versus-- 126 armor"

Even though I'm a big fan of maximizing armor, I'd take the stamina and dodge every time.

As for strength adding Block Value, it takes 20 strength to increase your Block Value by 1. Pretty much useless, considering that 1 Str and 1 BV have the same itemization cost. Block value is a fantastic stat, especially for heroics, but the amount you gain from strength is completely negligible.
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