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3/5 Reckoning vs 3/3 PoJ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:07 pm
by redlenses
Which is a better bang for the buck for a tank in say Kara?

Reckoning for imprvoed threat and parry gib

or

PoJ for a extra run speed and spell avoidance

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:47 pm
by Doktah
Reckoning IMO.....poj is crap

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:47 pm
by Shamora
Parry gib is more of a warrior concern with their shield block only have 2 charges every 5 secs, compared to our holy shield with 8 charges every 10 secs. Also if your worried about it on Prince you can simply stop attacking during phase 2. Holy shield, exorcism, consecration, ret aura, and judging will provide more then enough threat even without you swinging.

http://failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/ ... php?t=5124 shows that 4/5 and 5/5 are very close to the same uptime and 3/5 is not far behind them. I feel that 3/5 or 4/5 is a good spot to get the most per talent point.

I had 3/3 PoJ at one time and really loved the speed, but ended up dropping it for precision. I have Boar's Speed and didn't notice too much of a difference. So really it come down to if you want more threat (Reckoning) or more avoidance against spells (Pursuit of Justice). Personally I like a bit more threat and it's nice for 5 mans and dailies.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:51 pm
by Solumin_AK
Well, I haven't had the pleasure of tanking anything post-Karazhan, so please correct me if I'm wrong. With the exception of Prince, having 3/5 Reckoning isn't necessarily going to get you killed in any of the fights in Kara because of parries. Most of the mobs just don't swing that fast, and those that do (with the exception of Prince) don't hit super hard. Also, I can't think of many fights in Kara where having increased run speed is going to be a benefit, and the 3% spell avoidance won't really provide a whole lot either. I'd probably say Reckoning over PoJ for Kara, but take PoJ over Reckoning for anything post-Kara.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:22 pm
by Snake-Aes
Parrygibs are somethign I really don't worry about. From me. Your best way of getting rid of parrygibs is getting the dpsers to freaking stay BEHIND the boss.


And no, because he's not wielding a weapon doesn't mean he won't parry, mr fury warrior slamming gruul on the face just because you're too lazy to go back to your place after a cave in. He did attack me thrice in a row at growth 14 and it's your fault.
[/bitter]

POJ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:25 pm
by djellum
I think POJ is good for the early life when your still getting geared. Threat at the early levels is easier to come by then uncrush/staying power. Taking PoJ lets you get stam to your boots instead of speed and every little bit helps when your starting out.

PoJ = 15% movement, 3% less chance of being hit by spells, and 120 hp (ench) for 3 points

Reckoning = 6% chance to proc 3-4 extra swings and an 8% (I believe) increase in speed from the ench for 3 points.

All comes down to where you will see the bang for the 3 talent points, but point for point PoJ isnt a horrible choice imo. the speed isnt critical but it is nice and most ppl find a way to get a speed increase if they can. Currently ive got 3 in PoJ but im missing my reck and wanting to try out SoC with a 2 hander and see if i like it for dailies. Im prob going to respec and go 3/5 reck and get SoC to try it out.

the speed is nice in lots of 5 mans if your still running them, Murmur, the fire chick in Mech, anytime you have to chase down a mob cause your puggin with crap dps and your taunts on cd...

Re: POJ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:44 pm
by Shamora
djellum wrote:PoJ = 15% movement, 3% less chance of being hit by spells, and 120 hp (ench) for 3 points

Reckoning = 6% chance to proc 3-4 extra swings and an 8% (I believe) increase in speed from the ench for 3 points.


The speed increase to boots is 8%, but don't forget Boar's Speed gives the 8% PLUS 9 Stam. The way I've always seen it I can get speed on my boots but I can't get extra attacks on them. Also if your an Alliance Pally like myself reckoning makes keeping up SoV easy sauce.

Again:
Shamora wrote:So really it come down to if you want more threat (Reckoning) or more avoidance against spells (Pursuit of Justice).

Re: POJ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:30 pm
by Endus
Shamora wrote:The speed increase to boots is 8%, but don't forget Boar's Speed gives the 8% PLUS 9 Stam. The way I've always seen it I can get speed on my boots but I can't get extra attacks on them. Also if your an Alliance Pally like myself reckoning makes keeping up SoV easy sauce.


Yes, Boar's Speed is +9 stam, but it means you AREN'T getting Fortitude to boots, which is +12. So PoJ effectively gives you +3 Stamina, due to enchant priorities.

And while I can't get extra attacks on my boots, at my progression (Kara farming, working on ZA and Gruul), I don't *need* extra attacks. I'm holding threat just fine, more than fine, really. +399 spelldamage, checking my current raid-buffed status, helps.

And while I can't get extra attacks on my boots, I also can't get 3% spell miss on my boots. I took PoJ for the spell miss chance, it's not as much damage mitigation as Spell Warding (I'm 1/2 in that, too), but the spell miss works on ALL spells. I got lucky, and had two Ice Tombs miss me tonight while fighting the Skeletal Ushers in Kara. That's handy. To me, the foot speed is just a bonus to the real reason I took the talent.


It really does, like most here have said, come down to what you need more; threat or mitigation.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:47 pm
by Jensaarai
PoJ makes me cry.

Reckoning ftw.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:47 am
by Frickit
Does anyone else think that reckoning can be risky post Kara? I dropped spell warding because I don't care about it and I put 3/5 in reck. Its been cool so far but we are about to venture into T5 land soon and I don't wanna get destroyed when I could have avoided it.

Is parry gib that big a deal? sorry I looked around and I couldnt find exactly what I was looking for.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:59 am
by shifttusk
Frickit wrote:Is parry gib that big a deal? sorry I looked around and I couldnt find exactly what I was looking for.


My pally isn't 70 yet but I really think reckoning can't be that big of a deal. I mean all of warrior and druid threat generation are parry-able hits and one of the threat buffs always given to warriors is a WF totem. I'd still think even with alot of reckoning uptime (I'm builiding to 0/49/12 with 3/5) we'd never be at as high a risk as the warrior.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:07 pm
by Levantine
Pretty much the only two fights where parry gib is actually real is Prince phase two, and pre nerf Shahraz.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:52 pm
by Endus
Jensaarai wrote:PoJ makes me cry.

Reckoning ftw.


I don't see why 3% spell damage mitigation, plus 3% non-damage spell avoidance, +3 stamina, and +7% movement speed (those last two being the effect of getting Fortitude rather than Boar's Speed) "makes you cry".

PoJ is a mitigation choice. Reckoning is a threat choice. I'm moving beyond Kara content now, and my threat's gorgeous, without Reckoning. So, I'd rather shore up my defenses, especially to spelldamage where it's weakest, rather than add yet more threat I don't in any way need.

Might that change at higher content levels? Sure. But that doesn't mean the talent is in any way "bad". It's a mitigation talent, rather than a threat-generating one.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:10 pm
by Snake-Aes
Levantine wrote:Pretty much the only two fights where parry gib is actually real is Prince phase two, and pre nerf Shahraz.
ANd nalorakk, which went through the same change Sharaz did

And to the guy above me, it's 3% spell avoidance. Not mitigation, it doesn't reduce damage taken by any hit that connects.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:16 pm
by Endus
Snake-Aes wrote:And to the guy above me, it's 3% spell avoidance. Not mitigation, it doesn't reduce damage taken by any hit that connects.


"Mitigation" isn't a game-defined term, and having 3% of spells miss me does mitigate how much damage I'm taking over time. I never meant to suggest that it reduced every spell hit; that's Spell Warding.

However, I would say that all avoidance IS, by definition, mitigation. Just by a chance at 100% reduction rather than a constant percentile reduction.

But now we're just kibitzing terminology, really. I never meant to imply other than how it works.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:21 pm
by Snake-Aes
we do separate mitigation from avoidance exactly because both are focused on a per-hit point of view.
Enough of this >.> I've already derailed too many threads today.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:29 pm
by Levantine
D: You were being a MoDer without me? /cry /wrists I feel so betrayed.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:06 pm
by Snake-Aes
=( I couldn't stop thinking of you! That's why I stopped!

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:14 pm
by Levantine
*shiffle*

I suppose that's alright. :<

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:57 pm
by mustangofold
I had to say Neither was the best choice.

POJ is nice, wish I could squeeze it into my build, Reckoning was great for leveling and fun with AOE trash.

But while still only MTing Kara level I specced into Imp. seal of the crusader. (my guild does not have a Retadin)
If we get a Retadin I will probably switch to the normal Improved Judgement spec for more personal threat.

Maybe a different spec will be more useful than what I have seen so far once we progress a bit more...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:16 pm
by Lakirby
I like Reckoning. A lot. Wish I didn't have to take Precision, then I could spec back to 5/5.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:42 am
by rozakk
just curious as ive been pretty late in accepting this whole reckoning comeback scenario. the parry gibbing scenario has basically been dismissed as of late, is there any theorycrafting or logs to back this up? i've been considering going back to reckoning, as my spell dmg in conjunction with the 2.3 libram, is up now where i can see it being a good boost to my single target tps. And ive always known it'd be nice to have in 5mans if im grouped with tier6 dps. It just seemed like the chance of burst dps on myself (i cant really stack much expertise into my gear currently) , though low, wasnt worth the risk of death. Is there some objective proof that the actual increase in spike dmg is negligible?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:47 am
by Levantine
Parry gib was more of an excuse to drop Reckoning before anything else, rather than an actual threat to tank life (except in specific encounters a la Prince phase 2 or pre nerf Shahraz)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:51 am
by Hillbilly
I don't bother with reckoning, its for threat and I never have any problems holding agro unless its a crit based pvp noob standing behind me. They could learn from a few deaths anyway. I use poj now becuase any extra avoidance of spell dmg is a perk imo, but I do tend to wonder about dropping it for shield specialization. Still arguing this one over with the voices in my head ;)