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Aggro Issues

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Aggro Issues

Postby honorshammer » Thu May 17, 2007 5:44 am

I'm looking for some basic training on holding aggro.

Basically, if I can't throw my shield, I wind up losing aggro to Cat Druids, and Fury Warrriors, and sometimes to one of our Fire mages, but its moreso the Cats and Furys that are pulling off me.

At first I thought it was that my spell damage in my tanking gear is low (between 100-200, depending on my gear setup). So last night, I did an experiment with my Fury Warrior friend. We were doing the Kara Key Guardian in Arcatraz. I wore nohting but spell damage gear (330 spell damage). It took a bit but before the Guardian died, sure enough, he pulled aggro off me. If I can't hold him off with 300+ spell damage, I don't how I would be able to hold off with 100-200 in my tanking gear.

My S.O.P is usually to throw my shield , judge Wisdom, Seal Right, Holy Shield, Devo Aura, Bless Wisdom and start whacking away. Judging everytime its up (with improved Judgement). Sometimes I use Consecrate, but often not because of CC issues (sheeps seem to be rather attracted to it).

Anyway, any tips, training you could offer, I'd appreciate it.
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Postby Daromire » Thu May 17, 2007 5:58 am

Well for starters have your blessing and aura on before you start your pull. Your post implies that you turn them on / cast them after you've pulled. As for quick aggro at the start, Shield, SoR, Judge, Holy shield, then put your secondary judgement up because by this time you have had enough of an aggro frontload. After you put your secondary judgement up go back to SoR judge rotation.

Additionally, if you want to be able to use concecrate for aggro (tps is amazing on it) pull your mobs away from the sheep after the mage has done his thing. Sometimes there isn't room to move mobs around but most the time you can pull them back a bit further away from sheep then lay a concecration down.
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Postby honorshammer » Thu May 17, 2007 6:12 am

Sorry about the way I worded that. I always have my Aura (sometimes Crusader, lol) and Blessing up before the fight.

I've clocked my Fury Warrior at as much as 500 DPS, so just to keep up, I've got to be doing about 275 DPS to hold him off.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 17, 2007 7:25 am

Fury warriors are very bad with aggro, especially in 5-mans, are you giving him salv?
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Postby honorshammer » Thu May 17, 2007 7:27 am

Lore wrote:Fury warriors are very bad with aggro, especially in 5-mans, are you giving him salv?


All the time, though he keeps asking for Kings or Might. I also asked the Feral if he was using his Cower skill and he said he was.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 17, 2007 7:35 am

I have a 70 fury warrior, I absolutely hate instancing with no paladin around because it means I don't have salv. Remind him that 30% less threat means he can do 30% more damage without pulling aggro :P

I haven't killed a key guardian on my paladin in a while, do they melee for magical damage? I know some similar mobs do, which means you can't block, which destroys your threat output.

I also don't judge wisdom in 5-mans, I just judge Righteousness from the start. I noticed, when my tankadin friend who I usually instance with on my Fury warrior drops crusader or wisdom first, I have to hold back until he gets a JoR in.
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Re: Aggro Issues

Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 17, 2007 8:40 am

Honorshammer wrote:I'm looking for some basic training on holding aggro.

Basically, if I can't throw my shield, I wind up losing aggro to Cat Druids, and Fury Warrriors, and sometimes to one of our Fire mages, but its moreso the Cats and Furys that are pulling off me.

At first I thought it was that my spell damage in my tanking gear is low (between 100-200, depending on my gear setup). So last night, I did an experiment with my Fury Warrior friend. We were doing the Kara Key Guardian in Arcatraz. I wore nohting but spell damage gear (330 spell damage). It took a bit but before the Guardian died, sure enough, he pulled aggro off me. If I can't hold him off with 300+ spell damage, I don't how I would be able to hold off with 100-200 in my tanking gear.

My S.O.P is usually to throw my shield , judge Wisdom, Seal Right, Holy Shield, Devo Aura, Bless Wisdom and start whacking away. Judging everytime its up (with improved Judgement). Sometimes I use Consecrate, but often not because of CC issues (sheeps seem to be rather attracted to it).

Anyway, any tips, training you could offer, I'd appreciate it.


A few things.

1. Your first judgement should be Righteousness, not Wisdom.
2. If you're having aggro issues, you should be running Retribution, not Devotion.
3. Consecration is not optional. If you're having trouble with crowd control, either make sure your healer doesn't suck and just break the crowd control and tank everything, or train your CCers to not suck as much.
4. Salv everyone else.
And I almost forgot, most importantly:
5. If you can't get Avenger's Shield off, or it misses, TELL YOUR PARTY TO HOLD OFF. This is key. If they open up full blast right from the start when you haven't had a chance to front load aggro, then you will lose aggro! Make sure they are aware of this.
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Postby Joanadark » Thu May 17, 2007 8:56 am

3. Consecration is not optional. If you're having trouble with crowd control, either make sure your healer doesn't suck and just break the crowd control and tank everything, or train your CCers to not suck as much.


try this...

Open with avengers shield and immidiately drop a consecration in the path of the incoming pack.

Back up.

Let the pack run accross the consecration, taking a tick or two, to get to you.

Call "go cc" once they are past it.

Remaining mobs reach you and start smacking you. Back them up to where you did the original consecrate.



You'll now have a situation where the mobs being tanked are away from sheeped ones, leaving you free to consecrate, and their backs are nice and conveniently exposed and angled towards your party.
Additionally, you have initial aggro on the CC'd mobs, and they should come to you automatically when they pop out of it.

Remember also that your ranged stun works wonders. I've also seen a shadowfury or a hunter ice slick trap over the pulling consecrate's location work wonders.





Above all, Salv. Giving someone anything but salv is essentially telling them they suck, and not only do they suck, but 'here, have this attack power buff so you have a chance in hell to pull off me.'
Granting someone salv is granting someone respect.
It says 'I have legitamate concerns over your massive DPS potential pulling, so this should let you do 30% more damage without gimping yourself.'

Put it in those terms and no DPSer will whine about salv.


Of course, any idiot can 5-point evisorate until he's blue and pull aggro. A skilled DPSer will do both more damage than an idiot and have less threat at the same time.
It's pretty easy to figure out how much DPS you're doing lying as a corpse on the floor.
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Postby uglymug » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:12 pm

I agree with Jonadark on most of this, but throwing an avenging shield to pull can pop sap so I usually don't hit avenging shield until after the pull has begun. AS works well when the CC is shackle, sheep or ice trap etc because those can go off after combat is started. AS'ing a mob next to sap will pop a sap so they have to be a distance away from the sapped mob before you should hit it.

Also, running mobs through consecration before CC places an 8 second DOT on them which is going to pop a fresh CC mentioned above. I like Joanadark's idea of having agro on the mobs after the cc, but I have had limited luck with this. The AS and a couple ticks usually won't hold the agro once they come out of cc anyways. One of the most effective agro management (and it is not really agro) tricks is hammer of justice. Typically the mob coming out of the CC is going to head to the caster of the spell... run over and stun them. By the time they are out of stun they are either dead from dps or you have agro. Again, RD has a nice short cooldown so you can use this too. I like HoJ better because it is easier to hit; where-as you can pick the wrong target for RD and lose the spell.

What I like to do is let a rogue sap, and do a sheep pull (let the rogue pull if there is no mage). They go running after the mage (or rogue) but a quick RD will head them straight at you (unless they resist which makes it much harder). Throw up your holy shield (try to get the puller to warn you before the pull and you can have it up already), and lay down a consecration for them to run into. Then Avenging shield them. You can easily hold two to three mobs this way.

Larger groups of mobs or lack of CC makes it a bit tougher, but you tanking two while the rest dps down the most dangerous free running mob is a good option if the group can keep its head about it. Keep your eye on your team and RD off any mobs that you can.

The key to effective agro management for a pally can really be the group you are playing with. If they are dps happy and refuse Salv, that is their problem... they probably don't believe a pally can tank anyways and you do not want to play with them. You will know you are with this kind of group as soon as they tell you your +spell dmg sword is for mages or warlocks. If they think that, they don't understand how a pally gets and maintains agro. Also, if they ask you to not use consecration so they can CC, then they do not get how to play with a pally tank.

I don't necessarily agree that Salv is needed for everyone. If the other players are responsible, having kings on them is a great option and I almost prefer it. If they re pulling agro off of you, then throw a salv on them and the problem is solved (for the most part). I especially like a BoW or a BoK during boss fights so that it is easier for the other team members to last with mana and survive the other boss abilities. As long as the group is disciplined enough to let you get agro up front, other blessings can really help. Most of the other classes have ways of dealing with their agro management if they know how to play... if they do not, you are not going to be successful as a group anyways.

Oh and a pally tank should be using ret aura all the time, except during boss fights or heavy spell damage fights. Ret aura is your little agro buddy. The armor from devo aura is almost useless in most situations, even if improved. I don't even have improved devo aura... you shouldn't need it.
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Postby Minn » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:02 pm

For long term threat generation, I've yet to find a combo that beats JotC + SoV, with JoV every time your judgement cooldown is up. Note that this *isn't* the biggest upfront spike (JoR as your first will do that), but the steady holy damage + big judgements really add up in fights over 30s or so.

You might also consider using Blessing of Sanctuary instead of another blessing. Sanctuary provides a bit of damage reduction, more against light hitters, but the big bonus is the extra threat every time you block. If you really want to min/max, pick block rating over straight avoidance when constructing your defense table if given the choice.

The method of placing consecrate on the pull path and then sheeping/fearing after you've established initial aggro is a good one. Another thing you can do is just have the mage sheep one of the mobs right after Avenger's Shield. Due to the daze, the mob ends up CCed outside of melee range, leaving you free to use Consecrate.

If you're losing aggro in short fights, try a sequence with more frontloaded holy damage. Consecrate, Holy Shield, Judge Righteousness and re-up Righteousness. The following macro is handy, not sure if you are using something similar already:

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness

As long as you're not waiting on your global cooldown, hitting this button will judge whatever seal is active, then put up SoR immediately. This is nice because you don't end up with any swings without a seal up. Tap it once before the pull, tap it again when the mob is in range, and you've got the basic JoR+SoR combo going.
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Postby eia » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:06 am

uglymug wrote:IThe AS and a couple ticks usually won't hold the agro once they come out of cc anyways.


Seriously, if you are having trouble not getting aggro from CC:d mobs only from AS, you need to tell your team mates to spec out of "Improved Threat from Sheeping" or whatever the hell they are doing..
I can't think of a single time that CC:d mobs came running for the mage if I only hit them with AS first.

That's in my opinion the great thing with AS, dazed mobs means mages have time to sheep before they reach the party, and I can consecrate because the sheep are a way off, and when CC breaks, they will come for me.
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Postby Ignus » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:02 am

if you have a mob sapped before pull, and there are not enough to use avenger's shield without breaking the sap, you can look for a critter to use for the first bounce to help you avoid breaking sap, or have a hunter, mage, or lock pull, then AS, then CC. consecration should be down 100% of the time, downrank it to preserve mana after you get initial threat. Also, you should get good at knowing exactly the radius of your spell so you can have a mage CC a ranged attacking mob that's right on the outside ring of the graphic.

It's all about placement and positioning, then just rip loose with consc. Also, judge crusader on your target to keep other people from drawing aggro. If you really need the mp from JoW, use it on the second mob or after you have a hefty threat lead.
If you invest all of your talents, all of your gear, all of your knowledge and skill into tanking, you should be the best tank.
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Postby Prepared » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:49 am

Salvation on all DPSers.

Judge Crusader on it if it's a single target that will not die in ~5 seconds.

That's my solution to pretty much all aggro problems. I'm going to have a second piece of Justicar soon, and I already told everyone in the guild that if they manage to pull aggro off me with ~280 spell damage and 10% bonus to my main threat attacks, they are wrong.
"Judgement day's not coming soon enough."


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Defense < 490 = Healing gear or Hydross gear.
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