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Post-2.1 Spiritual Attunement numbers

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Postby Lore » Mon May 21, 2007 7:10 am

The damage dealt to the Paladin by SoB is really really minor, it'd take 2 or 3 judgements before any healer even looked at you.
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Postby Rhastago » Mon May 21, 2007 8:12 am

Thank you for posting these numbers, at least we won't be totally borked in raid content.
Imo, they should up SA to 20% and keep it "nerfed".
The gain should be more noticable. :(
Fact is, it's sooooo unfair that warriors would get to be in perma full rage state in even maulgar.. :p
While we would be semi mana starved.
oh well.

A bit off-topic: I've always wondered how are palas doing as an offtank (2nd on threat) using SoVengeance.. To me it seems pretty great for that purpose.
But dunno.
Some feedback would be great.
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Postby Eloff » Mon May 21, 2007 4:01 pm

you can also attempt to keep a blessing of sacrifice up on the MT, but I'm not sure if you'd actually get enough mana healed to make up for its cost every 29 seconds... My initial thought is no.
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Postby Kyroro » Thu May 24, 2007 11:06 pm

If you've ever healed Maiden, you basically keep BoS on the MT up all the time if you don't want to bother with the repentence timers. It's not a lot of damage at all. Mostly people just hit me with a HoT to get rid of the damage. Nowhere near the amount needed to keep your mana up to say generate secondary threat.
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Postby jere » Fri May 25, 2007 12:57 pm

Rhastago wrote:
A bit off-topic: I've always wondered how are palas doing as an offtank (2nd on threat) using SoVengeance.. To me it seems pretty great for that purpose.
But dunno.
Some feedback would be great.


I use SoV a lot when I OT. The only times you cannot use it to OT are when you have to be 2nd after the MT at the very beginning (think OT'ing the hurtful strike on Gruul). Other than that, I don't mind being 5th or so at first and then jumping up to 2nd.
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Postby Kvaern » Sun May 27, 2007 4:12 am

jere wrote:
Rhastago wrote:
A bit off-topic: I've always wondered how are palas doing as an offtank (2nd on threat) using SoVengeance.. To me it seems pretty great for that purpose.
But dunno.
Some feedback would be great.


I use SoV a lot when I OT. The only times you cannot use it to OT are when you have to be 2nd after the MT at the very beginning (think OT'ing the hurtful strike on Gruul). Other than that, I don't mind being 5th or so at first and then jumping up to 2nd.


20 growths ?
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Postby Kvaern » Sun May 27, 2007 4:15 am

Rhastago wrote:Thank you for posting these numbers, at least we won't be totally borked in raid content.
Imo, they should up SA to 20% and keep it "nerfed".
The gain should be more noticable. :(
Fact is, it's sooooo unfair that warriors would get to be in perma full rage state in even maulgar.. :p
While we would be semi mana starved.
oh well.

A bit off-topic: I've always wondered how are palas doing as an offtank (2nd on threat) using SoVengeance.. To me it seems pretty great for that purpose.
But dunno.
Some feedback would be great.


I don't even want to try to OT after the SA nerf.
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Postby jere » Mon May 28, 2007 7:47 am

Kvaern wrote:
jere wrote:
Rhastago wrote:
A bit off-topic: I've always wondered how are palas doing as an offtank (2nd on threat) using SoVengeance.. To me it seems pretty great for that purpose.
But dunno.
Some feedback would be great.


I use SoV a lot when I OT. The only times you cannot use it to OT are when you have to be 2nd after the MT at the very beginning (think OT'ing the hurtful strike on Gruul). Other than that, I don't mind being 5th or so at first and then jumping up to 2nd.


20 growths ?


I am not sure what you are asking/saying (I must be a bit dense this morning). I have never seen him past 16 growths as we either kill him by then or it's some form of wipe situation.

However, my comment was that you cannot use SoV on gruul unless you want to take the chance of other melee getting 2nd place early on and eating some HS from gruul. Though as an offtanking tool, SoV works good on adds and stuff in Kara and other places as you can afford not to be 2nd at the beginning of the fight (since SoV ramps up).
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Postby Kvaern » Tue May 29, 2007 9:37 pm

jere wrote:
Kvaern wrote:
jere wrote:
Rhastago wrote:
A bit off-topic: I've always wondered how are palas doing as an offtank (2nd on threat) using SoVengeance.. To me it seems pretty great for that purpose.
But dunno.
Some feedback would be great.


I use SoV a lot when I OT. The only times you cannot use it to OT are when you have to be 2nd after the MT at the very beginning (think OT'ing the hurtful strike on Gruul). Other than that, I don't mind being 5th or so at first and then jumping up to 2nd.


20 growths ?



What I meant is that if you have a pally OTing gruul your DPS must hold back big time to stay behind him.

I'd like to know if it's possible though and what kind of spelldamage is required to produce enough threat to make sure your raid wont be gimped.


I am not sure what you are asking/saying (I must be a bit dense this morning). I have never seen him past 16 growths as we either kill him by then or it's some form of wipe situation.

However, my comment was that you cannot use SoV on gruul unless you want to take the chance of other melee getting 2nd place early on and eating some HS from gruul. Though as an offtanking tool, SoV works good on adds and stuff in Kara and other places as you can afford not to be 2nd at the beginning of the fight (since SoV ramps up).


What I meant is that if you have a pally OTing gruul your DPS must hold back big time to stay behind him.

I'd like to know if it's possible though and what kind of spelldamage is required to produce enough threat to make sure your raid wont be gimped.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 6:58 am

I haven't had much OT'ing compared to Warrior or Druid tanks. Keep in mind that they aren't getting rage just like we're not getting mana. I generally bring a few mana pots (the mats are a lot cheaper now, and I'm not spending 100g+ on mats for elixirs anymore) and that's enough to keep my mana up while keeping SoR, JoR, and Consecrate going.
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Postby Kvaern » Wed May 30, 2007 8:56 am

Lore wrote:I haven't had much OT'ing compared to Warrior or Druid tanks. Keep in mind that they aren't getting rage just like we're not getting mana. I generally bring a few mana pots (the mats are a lot cheaper now, and I'm not spending 100g+ on mats for elixirs anymore) and that's enough to keep my mana up while keeping SoR, JoR, and Consecrate going.


Have you OT'ed Gruul?
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Postby Kathryn » Wed May 30, 2007 10:11 am

AS far as on topic lol... I can say that i don't feel the change at all.

In pre kara, i pull more groups at once to AoE, and it's faster clear.

In Kara i don't need to consecrate exept if i'm tanking more than 1 mob (Exorcism)

On Bosses (like Prince for example) I just have to use my skill in an intelligent way to keep my Threat above everyone i have 0 mana problem.

I'm used to be healed by Resto druids and resto shamans.. And pre patch Earthshield and Lifebloom didn't give any mana back through SA, and now they do so it more than offset the changes...
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Postby jere » Wed May 30, 2007 10:22 am

Kvaern wrote:
What I meant is that if you have a pally OTing gruul your DPS must hold back big time to stay behind him.

I'd like to know if it's possible though and what kind of spelldamage is required to produce enough threat to make sure your raid wont be gimped.


I have tested it in this way:

We had our MT tanking Gruul and a druid OT'ing him. I then tried to stay 3rd (behind the druid)...with respect to melee vs. ranged. I didn't have any trouble generating the threat to stay right behind our OT. The only problem I had was keeping enough mana to do it. If I went all out I could stay above everyone pretty easily. I guess if I was taking the HS's every so often I would get some mana back, but I would imagine not enough. I had to chug pots in the test I did, but I was able to maintain aggro high enough to keep the HS off the melee if the druid wasn't there between me and the MT. I have 244 spell dmg in my tankng set.

I never said you could successfully OT gruul with SoV. In fact I said the exact opposite: that I wouldn't use SoV to OT gruul as it takes too long to ramp up.
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Re: Post-2.1 Spiritual Attunement numbers

Postby Dorven » Wed May 30, 2007 5:06 pm

Lore wrote:Holy Shield (280 mana) every 10 seconds, or 28 mana per second
JoR (124 mana) + SoR (221 mana) every 10 seconds, or 34.5 mana per second
Consecration (660 mana) every 8 seconds, or 82.5 mana per second


145 mana per second total.

Sure, that's a lot. But there's stuff that can be done about that:

- First of all, if you don't need the threat, you don't necessarily need to spam all of these abilities every time they're available.
- 2/5 Righteous Armor, though it's not something you'd want at SSC or better, knocks 15% off the price of Consecration. That brings it down to 70mps for the max rank - saving 12mps.
- you can downrank Consecration to rank 5.
Rank 6 does 512 dmg + 76% of your +dmg for 660 mana
Rank 5 does 384 dmg + 76% of your +dmg for 505 mana
At 200 spell damage, rank 5 does 536 dmg for 505 mana, and Rank 6 does 664 for 660 mana - giving 1.06 DPM to Rank 6's 1.01 and knocking 19mps off of that overall rating.
- mp5, though a bad stat to have in general, is still found on pally tanking gear. Whether we like it or not, there's probably 20mp5 hanging aroudn somewhere, which will save another 4mps.

Putting that together, a paladin with 2/5 Righteous Armor spamming rank 5 Consecration and with 20mp5 goes through 28 + 34.5 + 53.5 - 4 = 112mps.

Now consider that you don't necessarily need to break even every second. If that 112mps paladin gets 1000 healing/second, he's only losing 12 mps. With a 5k mana pool, it will be 7 minutes before his tank is empty. At that point, he has consumables to give additional time, and can back off on one or more threat generating tools to give the mob's damage a chance to catch up.

And none of this includes JoW/BoW. Or Shadow Priests. Or Shaman mana totems.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 7:41 am

Kvaern wrote:
Lore wrote:I haven't had much OT'ing compared to Warrior or Druid tanks. Keep in mind that they aren't getting rage just like we're not getting mana. I generally bring a few mana pots (the mats are a lot cheaper now, and I'm not spending 100g+ on mats for elixirs anymore) and that's enough to keep my mana up while keeping SoR, JoR, and Consecrate going.


Have you OT'ed Gruul?


Yes I have, and sorry I meant to say I haven't had much TROUBLE OT'ing, dropped a word somewhere :P Also OT'ed Void Reaver last night. Druids still destroy everyone on OT'ing because they don't lose any threat output by not being targetted constantly, but Paladins and Warriors are about the same. We lose Holy Shield, they lose Revenge.
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