Post-2.1 Spiritual Attunement numbers

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Post-2.1 Spiritual Attunement numbers

Postby Lore » Wed May 16, 2007 12:45 pm

So since a lot of people seem confused about how much the 2.1 SA overhealing nerf is going to affect us, I thought I'd post up some numbers explaining exactly what we can expect.

We all know how it works currently, 10% of the healing we take is added to our mana pool, with the exception of some healing spells that don't work with it. This means that, as long as we're getting healed by the proper spells, we're getting mana. In 2.1, this is being changed to only count the actual amount we're healed for - overhealing no longer gives mana.

You can generally expect that your healers are going to top you off shortly after taking damage, so what this change effectively means is that your mana gain is now a function of the amount of damage you're taking instead of the amount of healing you're taking.

So, for some example numbers, let's look at a raid boss like High King Maulgar. He hits for roughly 5-6k every 2.5 seconds, with a special attack or two I won't worry about too much for purposes of this demonstration. His regular old melee hits will put up around 2200 damage per second against you. Let's say you have 40% combined miss, dodge, and parry, which for the sake of argument we'll call a flat 40% damage reduction. That means you can expect him to put out about 1500 damage per second when all is said and done.

In all likeliness you're going to be healed to full after taking damage, so we can assume you're taking 1500 effective healing per second as well. That's 150 mana per second, or to compare to a more familiar number, that's 750 mana/5. Quite a healthy amount.

Now let's figure up how much mana you're going to be spending. Assuming a standard 0/49/12 build, typical tankadin full-threat rotation includes the following:

Holy Shield (280 mana) every 10 seconds, or 28 mana per second
JoR (124 mana) + SoR (221 mana) every 10 seconds, or 34.5 mana per second
Consecration (660 mana) every 8 seconds, or 82.5 mana per second

for a total of 145 mana per second being spent. That puts the threshold point where Spiritual Attunement alone will be able to feed a standard 0/49/12 tankadin rotation at 1450 damage taken per second, awful close to Maulgar's estimated 1500.

Obviously you can add in stuff like Blessing/Judgement of Wisdom, Mana Spring totems, Shadow Priests, mana pots, etc., but to me that makes it fairly clear that this nerf is really only going to have any real noticeable effect on pre-25man tanking, and likely not be too bad in heroics or Karazhan as well. I'm running a damage taken per second meter at home, I'd encourage other tankadins who may be concerned about the SA nerf to do the same.
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hey

Postby Mavrix » Wed May 16, 2007 2:52 pm

Lore,
Could you link to such a meter? Not only would it be useful for looking at this particular situation, but also useful for testing gear setups to find the best mitigation/avoidance setups.
Quick question about the meter you are using - how often does it average its data and does it track the max taken?
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed May 16, 2007 3:05 pm

Spiritual Attunement brings us even closer to Rage mechanics!

I personally will be stocking up on Dark Runes and Demonic Runes for 5 mans. Felwood/Scholo will be farmed to the ground.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 16, 2007 3:27 pm

I'm not entirely sure, I'm just using the FuBar DPS meter (www.wowace.com/files/), it has an option to enable damage taken per second.
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 16, 2007 3:35 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Spiritual Attunement brings us even closer to Rage mechanics!

I personally will be stocking up on Dark Runes and Demonic Runes for 5 mans. Felwood/Scholo will be farmed to the ground.


I'd say it doesn't. Rage can be generated by DOING damage, and by RECEIVING damage. A warrior/druid can get rage whether they are being injured or not.

Currently with SA, we can get mana whether we are being injured or not (from overhealing or normal healing). After the patch, we can only get mana by being injured.

Right now, the mechanic is very similar to Rage. After the patch, it'll be like a Warrior not getting any rage from hitting things.

Looks like I'll be judging Wisdom a lot.
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Postby Eloff » Wed May 16, 2007 3:36 pm

Dark Runes and Demonic Runes ...


Not only do they give you mana, but someone is sure to cast a heal on the damage you take... and give you more mana! I like to solo scholo myself, but they really don't drop with enough frequency to keep up with my usage rate...
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Postby Lore » Wed May 16, 2007 3:38 pm

Everlight wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Spiritual Attunement brings us even closer to Rage mechanics!

I personally will be stocking up on Dark Runes and Demonic Runes for 5 mans. Felwood/Scholo will be farmed to the ground.


I'd say it doesn't. Rage can be generated by DOING damage, and by RECEIVING damage. A warrior/druid can get rage whether they are being injured or not.

Currently with SA, we can get mana whether we are being injured or not (from overhealing or normal healing). After the patch, we can only get mana by being injured.

Right now, the mechanic is very similar to Rage. After the patch, it'll be like a Warrior not getting any rage from hitting things.

Looks like I'll be judging Wisdom a lot.


I judge wisdom on just about everything anyway :P
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Postby Arcand » Wed May 16, 2007 3:50 pm

Everlight wrote:Right now, the mechanic is very similar to Rage. After the patch, it'll be like a Warrior not getting any rage from hitting things.


My scintilla of optimism for the month of May: at least the mana problem will never really get worse than it is now. Our mana expenditure is at a maximum (until they start giving us [Librams of Paladinability Rank n+1]) while the damage we take is going to go up, up, up...
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Postby Joanadark » Wed May 16, 2007 10:33 pm

Everlight wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Spiritual Attunement brings us even closer to Rage mechanics!

I personally will be stocking up on Dark Runes and Demonic Runes for 5 mans. Felwood/Scholo will be farmed to the ground.


I'd say it doesn't. Rage can be generated by DOING damage, and by RECEIVING damage. A warrior/druid can get rage whether they are being injured or not.

Currently with SA, we can get mana whether we are being injured or not (from overhealing or normal healing). After the patch, we can only get mana by being injured.

Right now, the mechanic is very similar to Rage. After the patch, it'll be like a Warrior not getting any rage from hitting things.

Looks like I'll be judging Wisdom a lot.



I don't think that analysis is complete. Because, uniquely among the three tanking classes, we actually deal damage BY taking damage.

For Paladins, assuming uncrushability, there is a direct correlation between the clustering of the incoming damage (meaning "number of hits that equal that total amount in the given length of time") and damage/threat you deal.

Warriors' auto-attacks deal direct damage, which grants rage, which they can then spend on threat abilities.
Paladins deal reactive fire-and-forget threat.
The result is the same. Dealing damage equals threat.
We just happen to be....well.....less interactive.



I think that understanding this difference also heavily relates to the primary concept I champion.

With warriors, a non-trivial amount of their rage-generation is NOT tied to being hit.
This fact is what makes warrior off-tanking and tank transitions possible, as the off-tank who is not currently the holder of aggro can still be threat-building indefinately, simply at a lower rate.

Paladins' ability to RESTORE their threat-gen resource, mana, is dependant on taking damage and being the source of aggro. Pots arent a factor that can be considered, nor is SoW, as fully two-thirds on non-reactive damage Paladin threat-generating abilities consist of Seal and Judgement, with the only remaining option being Consecration.
Not to mention that Reckoning will never be up at all.

The affect of no overhealing mana from Spiritual Attunement is significant in MY mind because it actually makes Warriors a far more effective OFF TANK than Paladins due to the difference in their mechanics.
I view that as a very healthy difference.
But it needs counterbalancing by something...
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 16, 2007 11:33 pm

Joanadark wrote:The affect of no overhealing mana from Spiritual Attunement is significant in MY mind because it actually makes Warriors a far more effective OFF TANK than Paladins due to the difference in their mechanics.


Yep. When all is said and done, Prot paladins at this time aren't much chop as off-tanks - we generate a very significant amount of threat through means that require us to be actually getting attacks.

Now, this isn't necessarily a problem, it's just that if we can't off-tank, we need to either be a) viable as first choice or b) able to do some other raid task effectively to justify our slot.

Admittedly, we CAN off-heal, but our longevity is very limited without the supporting Holy talents.
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Postby Lorath » Thu May 17, 2007 4:55 am

With the nerf, either we MT or we don't tank at all. Perhaps having 500 mp5 can help (exaggeration, oh noes :roll: )

What I've been saying all this time is the nerf is irrelevant as long as we are taking damage. Tho it seems we need to take lots of damage if we want to get any mana out of SA 2.1. Offtanking, or maybe building secondary threat on a boss? Ha-ha-ha. How will you do that then, with 100% health and 0% mana?

Come 2.1 and SA nerf, if we don't take lots of damage, get lots of heals, gain lots of mana reg... we're screwed and utterly useless as tanks.

You try and convince your guild that you're a better MT now since you need to take damage (LOL!!!), with 4 k less hp than your warrior friend who you now say whould be OT. Please post that discussion here :)

I think I will start leveling up my Mage again.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 17, 2007 7:22 am

To be fair, the change really doesn't do much to our offtanking ability either -- unless you had people "healing your mana bar" before, offtanking/building threat generally meant not taking damage. The biggest problem we have offtanking is the loss of Holy Shield threat, which is similar to the loss of threat output a Warrior tank gets from not taking damage (I assure you, they don't get too much rage from meleeing with a shield on).

Don't forget mana pots, misdirects, JoW, that sort of thing. If you really need to, ask to be put in a group with a mana tide shaman or shadow priest. We have a lot of tools available to keep our mana bar up.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 17, 2007 8:50 am

Everlight wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Spiritual Attunement brings us even closer to Rage mechanics!

I personally will be stocking up on Dark Runes and Demonic Runes for 5 mans. Felwood/Scholo will be farmed to the ground.


I'd say it doesn't. Rage can be generated by DOING damage, and by RECEIVING damage. A warrior/druid can get rage whether they are being injured or not.

Currently with SA, we can get mana whether we are being injured or not (from overhealing or normal healing). After the patch, we can only get mana by being injured.

Right now, the mechanic is very similar to Rage. After the patch, it'll be like a Warrior not getting any rage from hitting things.

Looks like I'll be judging Wisdom a lot.


That's exactly what I meant. The reason SA is not similar to rage right now is that it's not directly tied to our damage intake, due to overheals working. When the nerf hits in 2.1, it will be a direct function of our damage intake, just like Rage. With the exception that warriors generate Rage through autoattacking and abilities (Blood Rage). However, we DO have the capacity to generate mana by hitting things (JoW). And besides that, in a raid situation, Warriors get 99% of their rage from incoming damage anyway. It's very close.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 17, 2007 8:52 am

Eloff wrote:
Dark Runes and Demonic Runes ...


Not only do they give you mana, but someone is sure to cast a heal on the damage you take... and give you more mana! I like to solo scholo myself, but they really don't drop with enough frequency to keep up with my usage rate...


EXACTLY! It is a foolproof item.

I think the drop rate out in Felwood from the satyrs might be better per time invested in soloing.
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JoB

Postby Jadlene » Sun May 20, 2007 9:10 pm

Perhaps this is time for us all to either start to SoB or get a JoB (sorry... bad puns)

But if we are off tanking then it seems to me we need a way to damage ourselves. The best way to do that is with Seal/Judgement of Blood. We're damaging ourselves and encouraging heals to be incoming.

Here's a positive for the belfs rather than just complaining about having no fear ward available or the better alliance seal.

Admittedly I'm still an up & coming paladin tank, but it seems logical enough?
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