Gear evolution 5-Man --> Heroic --> Karazhan --> 25

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Postby Daedallus » Thu May 31, 2007 1:15 pm

I made the mistake of *trying* to be a 25 man MT in a non-heroic mechanar yesterday. I'm not uncrushable yet, but i'm getting there.... and Talk about mana starved. I didn't have any trouble with agro, but i just wasn't taking any dmg. my holy priest was using her mana on Holy Fire. 1/2 way through i switched to spelldmg gear i use for solo/questing and things went much better. Definatly gotta keep at least a couple different sets of gear with you.
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Postby roderick » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:23 pm

OK, so I'm getting much closer to uncrushable thanks to these threads but I'm wondering if this is counterproductive to doing heroics. A post earlier said to max out spelldamage and stamina without worry about mitigation assuming your def was above 485 when in heroics. I tried building an armor set like that (basically swapping in a few Righteous pieces for the set at my armory link:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... n=Roderick

Anyway, long story short is I got beaten down pretty fast. I put on my full mitigation set (linked above) and we did much better, but It was still very tough going with bosses. Granted we were in harder Heroics (Black Morass and Steamvaults) but it still didn't feel good.

My question is, can your heroic set and your Karazhan / Raid set be the same?

My avoidance is currently 6.16 + 5 + 17.18 + 17.13 + 24.98 = 70.45

I don't yet have the Libram of Repentence which would put me at 105.45. I also have the Timewarden's Legs but I haven't gemmed them yet so I'm not wearing them.

My default position based on reading these threads is to start swapping out +dodge gems for +sta on the assumption that I'll get the libram soon enough. So long as I stay above 67.5 base mitigation I should be ok, the +sta will help me in heroics (I should get to 10K base) and I can still stay uncrushable with the libram. Alternatively, I start building out a third set for heroics which while they may share some pieces, will be much more +STA focused and sacrifice mitigation. This latter option sounds ugly as I already have enough pieces of armor.

What are other folks out there doing?

Thanks,

Roderick
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Postby Karathos » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:42 am

roderick wrote:I also have the Timewarden's Legs but I haven't gemmed them yet so I'm not wearing them.

My default position based on reading these threads is to start swapping out +dodge gems for +sta on the assumption that I'll get the libram soon enough. So long as I stay above 67.5 base mitigation I should be ok, the +sta will help me in heroics (I should get to 10K base) and I can still stay uncrushable with the libram. Alternatively, I start building out a third set for heroics which while they may share some pieces, will be much more +STA focused and sacrifice mitigation. This latter option sounds ugly as I already have enough pieces of armor.

What are other folks out there doing?

Thanks,

Roderick


Building a 3rd (or is it 4th at this point ... I forget) for Heroics with the requisite def and loads of stamina (but otherwise like my Raid gear, and uses many of the same pieces).

On other notes:
+Def is better (per point) until you hit Uncrushable than +dodge, remember there are +def armor kits as well.

Pick up some green quality gems from the AH on the cheap for your timewarden's, they have the potential for LOTS of stamina via gemming. They'll get you situated to begin with, and you can always upgrade as you go. Pick up a cleft hide leg armor kit for them as well. (or nethercleft if you can afford the mats and/or have someone to craft em.)

edit:
The +block rating enchant is excellent on your Raid tanking shield to up your uncrushability. After you hit Uncrushable, you may want to move that from +block (as it drops off the hit table first once you hit uncrushable) to something other (+dodge for example).
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Postby Aergis » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:49 pm

You sure is was the trash? The channelers are boss mobs, so they can crush.


Yep, same with me. The trash packs before mag can certainly crush without being 73. While pulling once I had my back to one as I wasn't particularly concerned about being crushed, since they were 72, and sure enough, incoming crush. They don't do much damage from melee though, so it's not a huge deal. If you feel like testing yourselves, simply turn around while tanking one, you'll should see a melee crush soon.
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Postby roderick » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 pm

On other notes:
+Def is better (per point) until you hit Uncrushable than +dodge, remember there are +def armor kits as well.


So just to make sure I have the math right:

2.4 Defense Rating = 1 Defense = .04 Miss/Doge/Parry/Block or .16 towards uncrushable

18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge

So a +8 dodge vs. a +8 def would work out like this:

+8 dodge = .42% towards uncrushable

+8 def = 3.3 defense = .48 towards uncrushable

Once you are uncrushable defense matters less because you don't get the benefit from miss and block as they've falling off the table already?

Just making sure I have this right as I'm going to have to do some math as I swap out gems and enchants.

I really didn't want to hear that I need another set, anyone else doing heroics just fine without a dedicated heroic set separate from their raid or 5-man set?
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Postby Semirhage » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:04 pm

For me, I farm every pre-KZ gear I could get my hands on.

Shoulders - farm Botanica for the spaulders of the righteous; and work on exalted faction shoulder enchant.

Cape - farm Steamvault for the Devilshark cape, it's the best tanking pre-kara; but I like Burnoose for Heroics pure damage reduction from armor and block value. Find a 12 stam agility enchant.

Nice bracers.

Legs - Time Warden is one of the best slots to stack stamina gems with the leather enchant.

Feet - Mana Tombs escort quest offers great mitigation. For heroics, I use Shatari Vindicator Boots and put 2 stam gems on them, it's great since I was over 485 defense and prefer more hp to be over 10k unbuffed.

Rings - Elementium Band of the Sentry (Arcatraz) and Protector (from Shadowmoon quest)

Trinket - Figurine of the Colosus (Shattered Hall)

Shield - Crest of Sha'tar - Exalted.

By having them, I get to uncrushable and allow me to gem up for stam instead.

I still need to farm Devilshark cape (juyst wont drop), and a few more heroic badges for the helm.

Also the elementium ring.

As for other pieces, I have all 18 slot bags on my character, and all my bank slots are 16's. My bank is almost full. I just need to purge outdated items into shards/dusts.
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Postby Alixander » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:14 pm

roderick wrote:Once you are uncrushable defense matters less because you don't get the benefit from miss and block as they've falling off the table already?
Misses still count (in fact according to what I've read they are the core, and hypothetically never fall off). But without blocks counting in, it's only .12 avoidance per point of defense or 0.396% avoidance for +8 defense.
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Postby roderick » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:24 pm

Feet - Mana Tombs escort quest offers great mitigation. For heroics, I use Shatari Vindicator Boots and put 2 stam gems on them, it's great since I was over 485 defense and prefer more hp to be over 10k unbuffed.


Yes, worse than nail fungus, my horrible boots will be an embarrasment until something better comes along. I botched my chance at the Sha'tari and the Flesh Beasts since I completed the quests before I understood crushability and tanking very well. I was prot specc'd but the items looked like "warrior" items to my newbie eye so I vendor'd them. *sigh*

Boots of the Righteous in Setthek (sp) are probably my best bet pre-Kara. Thanks for the rest of the gear guidance. Since I'm simply a libram away from uncrushable I may back off my defense and dodge a bit to ramp up stamina (so long as I stay uncrushable and over 490def).

-Roderick
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Postby Nich » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:01 pm

roderick wrote:I really didn't want to hear that I need another set, anyone else doing heroics just fine without a dedicated heroic set separate from their raid or 5-man set?

I have a pure spelldamage set of gear (mail or plate, slightly over 600 dmg) and a pure MT set of gear, where I only sit on 160-180 dmg.

Depending on the content I'm tanking, and the healer I have, I just swap around various combinations.
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Postby Karathos » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:35 am

roderick wrote:Once you are uncrushable defense matters less because you don't get the benefit from miss and block as they've falling off the table already?


roderick wrote:+8 def = 3.3 defense = .48 towards uncrushable


I believe that it is actually 3.3755 (Based on 2.37 rating to 1 defense skill from WoWWiki.) That should change it to 0.54% rather than 0.48% towards uncrushable.

Once you hit uncrushable you will always get the benefit from 'Miss' you just won't get (as much of) the benefit from Block as you're pushing it off the table first.

At that point, you're better off with +dodge. (Due to iLevel point costs, but only by a very very small margin.)

This is because the hit table looks like this: (Hit types will be removed from the bottom up ...)

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Glancing Blow (only players and pets versus mobs)
Block
Critical
Crushing Blow (mobs only)
ordinary hit

(This is why Rogues can Evasion tank stuff, because they can get Dodge SO high that everything else is pushed off the table.)

So you remove, hits, CB's, Crits and the next thing to go is Blocks. The last thing to go is Miss.

As for a 'completely separate' set, for Heroics ... it isn't _really_ a complete set (though I've considered seriously making a +block value set for heroics) as it has most of my Raid/Uncrushable gear but swaps out pieces like Andormu's Ring, for +stamina and defense/dodge gear. (Because uncrushable isn't needed in Heroics.)

So it is really only a 'half' set of gear.
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Re: Gear evolution 5-Man --> Heroic --> Karazhan -->

Postby Jaydin » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:52 am

roderick wrote:First off, thanks so much to everyone who's active on these forums. I've learned a ton since finding them a few days ago. I've since respecc'd and am now tackling improving my gear. However, I'm a bit confused. I see a lot of discussion in Gestalt's guide which seems to be 25-man focused. I also see a lot of gear in Dreamcrusher's gear guide for pre-raiding which seems 25-man raid focused (i.e. not classic spell damage +STA +INT +DEF pally tank gear). Finally, I see lots of anecdotal postings that say for tanking 5-mans you don't really need anything special. Dreamcrusher seems to separate 5-man gear from raid gear but is a heroic run considered more like a 5-man or more like a raid from a gear requirements perspective?

My gear that I have leaves me neither uncrittable nor uncrushable (and from reading the forums might be too heavy in +spelldamage and clearly need some upgrades):

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... n=Roderick

So I'm in a set group with 2 mages, 1 hunter, 1 priest, and me. I'm not having trouble with aggro and once we figure out the boss strategy we're taking down every non-heroic 5 man we come across. Based on what I read on the forums this is what I'd expect given my gear.

So our group is nearly done with the non-heroics and will be moving into heroics, and perhaps Karazhan. I have no ambitions to go beyond that.

I'm concerned if I overspecialize in mitigation at the expense of mana or spelldamage the group will be slowed overall due to mana-regen and less overall DPS (for me and others).

My question is how should your gear evolve over time and at what point does being uncrittable and uncrushable become key?

Do heroics require uncrittable and uncrushable?

Does Karazhan?

Are folks swapping gear between trash and bosses to maximize speed? If so, are you using more traditional pally plate gear for trash?

Thanks so much, sorry my post was so long.

Roderick


just a quick add on my part - make sure u keep 90% of your tanking gear, even if it gets outdated - multiple tanking sets eventually become useful - even warriors downgrade their gear for certain fights in order to take more damage = more rage. I personally have 2 tanking sets - both im uncrittable, but one is almost uncrushable (damned 2% grrrr) while the other is not super close to uncrushable, but it has more mana/spell dmg for frontloading more damage, and is more susceptible to taking damage so i get more mana out of the deal

i usually keep the heavy gear on unless i find i am desperately short on mana
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Postby Aina » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:30 am

Karathos wrote:
This is because the hit table looks like this: (Hit types will be removed from the bottom up ...)

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Glancing Blow (only players and pets versus mobs)
Block
Critical
Crushing Blow (mobs only)
ordinary hit


So you remove, hits, CB's, Crits and the next thing to go is Blocks. The last thing to go is Miss.


What I don't really understand when looking at this attack table is why we are so focused on keeping 490 Defense after achieving Uncrushability? If the fact of being uncrushable also means being uncrittable, why wouldn't we try to drop our defense a bit if that helps us get more Stamina or such?
This is ofcourse assuming that Holy Shield is up all the time, just like we assume it is for uncrushable purposes. So I reckon you're not going to do this in every situation - silencing mobs, multi-mobs etc.

Is it just not worth the risk in case you get a second of lag or ill-positioning of a mob? Am I theorycrafting to much and losing touch with the real deal? :P
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Postby Alixander » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:48 am

Aina wrote:What I don't really understand when looking at this attack table is why we are so focused on keeping 490 Defense after achieving Uncrushability? If the fact of being uncrushable also means being uncrittable, why wouldn't we try to drop our defense a bit if that helps us get more Stamina or such?
This is ofcourse assuming that Holy Shield is up all the time, just like we assume it is for uncrushable purposes. So I reckon you're not going to do this in every situation - silencing mobs, multi-mobs etc.

Is it just not worth the risk in case you get a second of lag or ill-positioning of a mob? Am I theorycrafting to much and losing touch with the real deal? :P
The area where it represents the most threat is not the second or so of lag or ill positioning of a mob, but the mobs that render us able to block parry or dodge for more than a moment. Things like being knocked down, or stunned. During those periods we are immobile thus unable to defend ourselves. And they happen enough to justify keeping defense over 490. In those types of situations a crush is bad, but a crit would be absolutely deadly.
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Postby Aina » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:59 am

Ah ofcourse, I forgot about knockdowns and stuns. Thank you :)
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Postby Xanatos » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:00 am

That and the fact that being uncrittable basically moves the whole chunk under "crit" to "miss" instead. It is kind of a factor when getting uncrushable.
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